[Ansteorra-rapier] Advisory Roll

Sean Hertzberg s_hertzberg at hotmail.com
Mon Jul 16 14:11:06 PDT 2001

>Uncle Avery,
>Can you please tell me what I should think too?  I'm not
>sure I've got the same monopoly on the one truth that you
>seem to have...
>Don't nobody get bent out of shape, I just think you were a
>little harsh... funny coming from me : P
>More comments below.

Chuckling...no offense taken, Hawkins.  Looking back, yeah I cam across
kinda harsh.  My appologies, it has been a long week...;).  I was not trying
to tell Walter that his opinion had no merit, if anything, I was trying to
show him that it DOES matter very much what he, or anyone else thinks.

I will respond below...

>On Mon, 16 Jul 2001 14:13:39 -0500
>  "Sean Hertzberg" <s_hertzberg at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >The caterpiller can not know what it is to be a
> > butterfly.
> >
> > Sorry Walter, I VERY much disagree.
> >
> > >Until the day I wear the scarf, my opinions on a
> > candidate's worthiness are
> > >largely irrelevant to the order. My opinions may reflect
> > "right-minded"
> > >thinking on my part, but why should they influence the
> > circle's
> > >understanding of itself?  The only thing I could do is
> > answer a specific
> > >question, such as: ' Is so-and-so still kind to small
> > children and furry
> > >animals when a WS is not around?'
> >
> > The WS are not perfect, they are human.  And they are not
> > Gods.  They are
> > the representatives of the rest of the rapier community
> > to the Queen.  I
> > have had this talk with several WS who I respect and they
> > pretty much agree
> > that they view themselves sort of like elected officials
> > with the rapier
> > community as their constituancy.  It is their job to see
> > that the views of
> > the group as a whole are heard as well as their own.
>Ummmm.... perhaps.  Yet if a million people believe one
>thing and I believe another - I'm going to vote my
>conscience and not the popular vote.

Agreed.  What is right is right, no matter what everyone else beleives.  But
you cannot make the call in a vacuum.  You have to take into account what
others are saying, doing, thinking.  If, after that, you still feel that you
are correct in how you are going to act, then I would hope that you would
vote as you felt was right.  I wish MORE of the Circle did that.

> >
> > >As far as marshallate, rules, and community issues,
> > perhaps the occasional
> > >roundtable ( no more than 2 per year ) at a class-type
> > event for an
> > >agenda-d
> > >discussion would be interesting.
> >
> > Don't forget, officially, the WS Circle has NOTHING to to
> > do with the
> > marshallate anymore.  There are WS in the Marshallate,
> > but the Circle does
> > NOT make or enforce the rules.  Look at the Regional
> > Rapier marshals...I
> > think only one of the 5 is a WS, the other 4 are cadets.
> > I am running the
> > list for Queens, and I am not a WS.
>Officially it doesn't.  What exactly does that mean, though?
>Does it mean we are out of line if we discuss marshallate
>issues in a circle?  : )

Chuckling again...you know what I mean.  There is a misconception that the
marshallate in Ansteorra and the WS are one and the same, and they are not.
Haven't been for a while now.  Yes, the WS are the leaders, but they are not
the Marshallate.

> >
> > >It's hard for me to imagine a candidate being elevated,
> > but rejected by the
> > >community as a whole.  The scarf is so well respected;
> > those that know the
> > >candidate will or won't respect him (deservedly or
> > undeservedly); those
> > >that
> > >don't know the candidate will respect him, by virtue of
> > the scarf
> > >(deservedly or undeservedly).  It might be very
> > difficult for such a
> > >candidate to accomplish anything within the circle, but
> > in the outer
> > >community he could be as well respected.
> >
> > Sorry, wrong, thank you for playing.
>Damn, Avery, have some vestige of humility.  I agree with
>WR.  The vast majority of the community will probably give
>the WS their respect, not knowing that person isn't as weel
>respected within the circle as some other candidates have
>been.  Otherwise up North there would be respect for maybe
>five out of region WSs... very few people have made the
>effort to win our communities respect, yet our fighters are
>generally kind enough to give them the benefit of the doubt
>until the get to know them.  Ask Iago how he was treated at
>our Warlord.  I don't think half of our fighters had seen
>him before (I could be wrong and I also mean no disrespect
>for Iago)

Looking at what I wrote...shaking my head at myself...

Ok, I was a little harsh.  My appologies again.  But the basic idea is the
same.  I agree that most will be polite to someone who they do not know and
will give someone the bennefit of the doubt...but I also know that there
have been several WS that have been made that have worked their rear-ends
off and STILL they have the "yeah, but Queen whats her name just gave him
the scarf, he never EARNED it" attatched to them, even years later.  I know
of one that did get a WS under controversial circumstances, who is one of
what I would consider the BEST WS we have, and he says he feels like he has
to go out and re-earn the Scarf EVERY day, even though he has been busting
his butt for years.  I feel it is NOT fair to the candidate to have this
happen, as well as to the Circle.

> >It has happened
> > before and I am afraid
> > that someday it will happen again.  No matter what the
> > Circle says, the
> > decision to give someone a WS is in the hands of the
> > crown.  Any Queen can
> > give WS to anybody they want, be it the most deserving
> > candidate, or her
> > favorite cabana boy that she thinks will look cute as a
> > Don.  We have been
> > lucky, it has not happened in a while.  We have had a
> > string of Queens that
> > have cared and not forced anyone in.  But Queens have
> > walked into the Circle
> > in the past and announced "I am giving so-and-so a
> > WS...and oh, what do you
> > vote?"  And this does a VERY great disservice to the
> > candidate (who will
> > always carry the stigma of "yeah, he has a Scarf,
> > but...") and to the rest
> > of the community.
>The rest of the community is not all composed of people who
>are intimately associated with circle politics.  I still
>guess that a majority of the rapier fighters would give
>respect to a Don they don't know until he proves he doesn't
>deserve it.  You think nobody will be given respect until
>they earn it, I've seen nobody is shown disrespect until the
>prove they deserve it.  Some Dons are given more respect in
>some areas than others, I saw that with James' reputation in
>the West, but I don't think that means the others aren't

I will argue from the point that information gets out.  People will know
that there were..."circumstances" behind someone getting an award.  They may
not know the details, but they will know something is fishy...

This is the SCA, and rumors move faster than anything else, remember?  ;)

> >
> > And on a personal rant.  The Scarf itself carries NO
> > respect in my mind.  I
> > can name several Dons and Donas...not all of them wear
> > WS.  I can name
> > several people who wear WS who will NEVER be a Don or a
> > Dona...the person is
> > MUCH more important than the award.  The Scarf is a
> > symbol, nothing more,
> > nothing less.  What is important is the person wearing
> > the symbol.
>I think the respect is more valuable than the scarf - but I
>also believe there is a positive correlation between the

There can also be a negative relationship as well...

> >
> > >But as I've already proven, my opinion is irrelevant.
> > :)
> > >
> > >Ld Walter Robin, AQR
> > >Mooneschadowe Rapier Marshal
> > >cdt Don Navarre
> >
> > Sorry Robin, your oppinion matters, as does everyone
> > else's.  A WS who does
> > not listen to the rest of the community is living in a
> > vacuum.
> >
> > Avery Shaw
> > Aubrey's
> > Coastal Regional Rapier Marshal
> > Stargate
>Northern Regional Rapier Marshal
>Allyson's : )

Yes you are Allyson's Don...but you were Navarre's cadet, and when you were
"just a cadet", your oppinion stil mattered.  And so does everyone else's.
Some just get heard more clearly and more often.

Avery (good arguement *grin*)
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