[Ansteorra-rapier] Pros and Cons of change

Mon Oct 15 11:55:06 PDT 2012

So, this begs a question for me -

Why not train with the tool you intend to use on the field? Of what
advantage is it to use, say, a Foil, to train with instead of the rapier
you will fight with? I look at the foil and epee as *bad* training tools,
because they teach all those bad habits (vis a vis the rapier) you mention
in your post here. What are the benefits of using a foil like a rapier in
training?

- Mateo

On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 12:47 PM, Puck Curtis <puck.curtis at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have an additional Con.
>
> Ansteorra's legacy culture resulted in significant transitional pain
> moving from the lighter blade technique to the heavier blade technique.
>  Specifically, I refer to the newer French foil/smallsword practice of
> parrying with the point on target (in presence) which was not safe practice
> with the heavier blades.  To parry with a bent wrist to keep the point
> maintained on the target was gospel when I was taught in Ansteorra but that
> doesn't fully close the line of offense.  Because the smaller (less massive
> and faster) blade's circular parries could compensate for the weaker
> defensive position this "legacy code" worked in a world primarily populated
> with lighter blades derived from a sporting tradition.  Ansteorra was a
> dominant SCA rapier power in the 1990s.
>
> Actual rapier practice as described in the manuals typically closes the
> line completely and redirects the point during the final stages of the
> counter-attack or riposte.  In contrast, the martial art as practiced by
> the Italians maximized defensive potential for as long as possible at the
> expense of offense.
>
> Unfortunately, when the SCA world moved onward the light-blade sporting
> bias left Ansteorra behind with regards to high-level play with heavier
> blades.  Not only was the Ansteorran-classic tradition falling behind, a
> highly vocal portion of the population slavishly defended the point-in-line
> parries derived from the French sport tradition.
>
> "I can make circular parries just as quickly with my 42" rapier as I can
> with my foil."
> (A statement which defies physics at every level.)
>
> This counter-movement actively applied the brakes to the Ansteorran rapier
> tradition which was once a powerhouse of combat superiority.  As a result
> Ansteorra was left to slowly dig itself out of the French foil hole while
> other kingdoms barreled forward immersing themselves in historical
> practices targeted towards the popular heavier weapons of the present day.
>  The counter-movement is a boat anchor holding back the kingdom's rapier
> culture.
>
> When I left 10 years ago, Ansteorra was like a new computer running old
> legacy code and continuously crashing on the bugs.  The fencing was broken
> in funny ways and it needed to be re-tooled for the new hardware.  Our top
> guys were beginning to make the transition to heavy blades but that
> migration was not yet complete.  It may be that the kingdom has moved past
> these artifacts of French foil that were so pervasive while I was there but
> that would be in spite of the counter-movement's desire to keep these
> weapons around.
>
> If the training doesn't match the combat, you will lose.
> It's not rocket science.
>
> All this and I should be the one presenting the argument for keeping
> foils.  They potentially make a great pedagogical tool for training with
> the rapier provided you don't use that crap smallsword technique.  For
> crying out loud I took 3 exams with these weapons and if I ended up in
> Ansteorra again tomorrow I would use foils and epees for training my crew.
>  But, I wouldn't stomp my foot and frothily demand that Ansteorra maintain
> tournament legal rules for these weapons.  Train with the pedagogy tool,
> fence in competition with the weapon.
>
> ~P.
>
> On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 5:34 AM, Pug Bainter <pug at pug.net> wrote:
>
>> Good Morning,****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>>   We’ve given the discussion about five days now including a weekend and
>> there appear to be no knew arguments for or against. Based off of that, I’m
>> going to try to succinctly articulate the Pros and Cons of this change. To
>> revisit, the proposed change was:****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> *Ansteorra convention:** Except under the Youth Rapier Program, Light
>> Rapier is to be eliminated within the borders of Ansteorra effective March
>> 17th, 2013. After that date, Light Rapier blades can only be used with
>> variances obtained in writing from the Kingdom Rapier Marshal at least 30
>> days in advance such as for historical SCA theme events. Ansteorra’s Rapier
>> authorizations permit use of Light Rapier blades at out of Kingdom events
>> where allowed.*
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Some individuals have suggested it be reworded as such:****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> *Ansteorra convention:** Except under the Youth Rapier Program, Light
>> Rapier is to be eliminated outside of training within the borders of
>> Ansteorra effective March 17th, 2013. After that date, Light Rapier
>> blades can only be used with variances obtained in writing from the Kingdom
>> Rapier Marshal at least 30 days in advance such as for historical SCA theme
>> events. Ansteorra’s Rapier authorizations permit use of Light Rapier blades
>> at out of Kingdom events where allowed.*
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> **·         **Cons:****
>>
>> **o   **The blades are allowed by Society and have not been proven to be
>> unsafe so we need to allow them.****
>>
>> **o   **It eliminates part of our origins within SCA Fencing.****
>>
>> **o   **It is exclusionary of those who prefer lighter weight blades.****
>>
>> **o   **It eliminates an option for those who are physically unable to
>> use heavier blades.****
>>
>> **·         **Pros:****
>>
>> **o   **The blades are statistically non-existent comparing the possibly
>> 10s of bouts to the 1000s of bouts per year.****
>>
>> **o   **Heavy blades are more historically accurate than light blades.***
>> *
>>
>> **o   **A significant majority of the SCA kingdoms as well as most
>> inter-kingdom wars have gone to heavy blades only.****
>>
>> **o   **The enforcement of the regulations around the lighter blades is
>> lax at best creating a risk point.****
>>
>> **§  **Combatants being authorized without having shown to be safe.****
>>
>> **§  **Marshals being authorized without knowing how to inspect the
>> equipment.****
>>
>> **o   **Light blades break more frequently than heavy blades elevating
>> the risk due to lax enforcement.****
>>
>> ****
>>
>>   Please let me know right away if I misrepresented any of the above or
>> missed a significant Pro or Con.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>>   There were several side discussions, but I think these were the ones
>> that spoke directly to the proposal.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> In Service,****
>>
>> Pug****
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
> “Measure what is measurable, and make measurable what is not so.”
> Galileo Galilei
>
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>
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>
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>

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