[Ansteorra-rapier] Pros and Cons of change

Puck Curtis puck.curtis at gmail.com
Mon Oct 15 12:24:36 PDT 2012 

Hola,

(Remember, I have a bias and all that follows is my opinion.)

A foil (or an epee) is a good training tool when its usage mirrors that of
the heavier weapon:

   1. It allows for a longer training session.
   2. You can dig deeper into the theoretical tree of time
   3. You can insist on a higher degree of precision.

*FOIL*
The usage of the foil should *reinforce* the technique of the heavier
weapon but allow you to train longer and explore theory further.  Foil is
about precision lethality in execution.

*EPEE*
The epee is about the practice of counterattacking with emphasis on
difficult targets such as angulations to the wrist or riposting-glides to
the arm.  Push difficult phrasing.  (First touch to the wrist, second touch
by angulation, third touch by arrest w/ reassemblement, simple parry of
2nd, circular parry of second, simple 3rd, circular 3rd, riposte by glide
to crock of the arm.)

*SABRE*
The sabre is about a rock-em-sock-em awesome frikkin' sword fight and
there's no good reason to use a light sabre unless you're teaching a 5 hour
lesson.  Just get Holzman's book and do that.  Gaugler's Science is great,
but Holzman's translation and additions to the old school stuff is hard to
beat.  Light sabres can kiss my butt.  Get a heavy sabre and take a bite
from the ass of life kids.  You haven't lived until you have thrown a spark
with a hanging first flying parry-riposte to the head.

*METHOD*
Somewhere I have a collection of lessons I put together for a wandering WMA
pilgrim who came through from out of the country. The lessons consisted of
a foil lesson for 30 minutes which established a theme and then a rapier
lesson to explore the theme.  (If you're interested, I can dig them up and
share them.  I generally assume no-one else is interested in my
navel-gazing.)

Basically, spend your theory time with a foil in hand and establish
technical proficiency in such a way that it doesn't contradict the other
weapon.  Next, sweat and burn with the rapier to drive the point home.  You
can also cool down with the foil when you're done to score a coda.

Ansteorra's issue is the modern Olympic sabre problem in reverse.  The
Olympics started with these beautiful heavy sabres and gorgeous technique
which then descended into a modern fairy-sabres as people tried to rack up
medals.  Ansteorra started with fairy-swords and is having to claw its way
out of the darkness into the gorgeous sword-fight.

The good news is that the SCA's aethestic has trumped the competitive
desire to win at the expense of the tool (and thus the art itself).

~P.

On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 11:55 AM, Andrew Heinrich <andrew.heinrich at gmail.com
> wrote:

> So, this begs a question for me -
>
> Why not train with the tool you intend to use on the field? Of what
> advantage is it to use, say, a Foil, to train with instead of the rapier
> you will fight with? I look at the foil and epee as *bad* training tools,
> because they teach all those bad habits (vis a vis the rapier) you mention
> in your post here. What are the benefits of using a foil like a rapier in
> training?
>
> - Mateo
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 12:47 PM, Puck Curtis <puck.curtis at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> I have an additional Con.
>>
>> Ansteorra's legacy culture resulted in significant transitional pain
>> moving from the lighter blade technique to the heavier blade technique.
>>  Specifically, I refer to the newer French foil/smallsword practice of
>> parrying with the point on target (in presence) which was not safe practice
>> with the heavier blades.  To parry with a bent wrist to keep the point
>> maintained on the target was gospel when I was taught in Ansteorra but that
>> doesn't fully close the line of offense.  Because the smaller (less massive
>> and faster) blade's circular parries could compensate for the weaker
>> defensive position this "legacy code" worked in a world primarily populated
>> with lighter blades derived from a sporting tradition.  Ansteorra was a
>> dominant SCA rapier power in the 1990s.
>>
>> Actual rapier practice as described in the manuals typically closes the
>> line completely and redirects the point during the final stages of the
>> counter-attack or riposte.  In contrast, the martial art as practiced by
>> the Italians maximized defensive potential for as long as possible at the
>> expense of offense.
>>
>> Unfortunately, when the SCA world moved onward the light-blade sporting
>> bias left Ansteorra behind with regards to high-level play with heavier
>> blades.  Not only was the Ansteorran-classic tradition falling behind, a
>> highly vocal portion of the population slavishly defended the point-in-line
>> parries derived from the French sport tradition.
>>
>> "I can make circular parries just as quickly with my 42" rapier as I can
>> with my foil."
>> (A statement which defies physics at every level.)
>>
>> This counter-movement actively applied the brakes to the Ansteorran
>> rapier tradition which was once a powerhouse of combat superiority.  As a
>> result Ansteorra was left to slowly dig itself out of the French foil hole
>> while other kingdoms barreled forward immersing themselves in historical
>> practices targeted towards the popular heavier weapons of the present day.
>>  The counter-movement is a boat anchor holding back the kingdom's rapier
>> culture.
>>
>> When I left 10 years ago, Ansteorra was like a new computer running old
>> legacy code and continuously crashing on the bugs.  The fencing was broken
>> in funny ways and it needed to be re-tooled for the new hardware.  Our top
>> guys were beginning to make the transition to heavy blades but that
>> migration was not yet complete.  It may be that the kingdom has moved past
>> these artifacts of French foil that were so pervasive while I was there but
>> that would be in spite of the counter-movement's desire to keep these
>> weapons around.
>>
>> If the training doesn't match the combat, you will lose.
>> It's not rocket science.
>>
>> All this and I should be the one presenting the argument for keeping
>> foils.  They potentially make a great pedagogical tool for training with
>> the rapier provided you don't use that crap smallsword technique.  For
>> crying out loud I took 3 exams with these weapons and if I ended up in
>> Ansteorra again tomorrow I would use foils and epees for training my crew.
>>  But, I wouldn't stomp my foot and frothily demand that Ansteorra maintain
>> tournament legal rules for these weapons.  Train with the pedagogy tool,
>> fence in competition with the weapon.
>>
>> ~P.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 5:34 AM, Pug Bainter <pug at pug.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Good Morning,****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>>   We’ve given the discussion about five days now including a weekend and
>>> there appear to be no knew arguments for or against. Based off of that, I’m
>>> going to try to succinctly articulate the Pros and Cons of this change. To
>>> revisit, the proposed change was:****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> *Ansteorra convention:** Except under the Youth Rapier Program, Light
>>> Rapier is to be eliminated within the borders of Ansteorra effective March
>>> 17th, 2013. After that date, Light Rapier blades can only be used with
>>> variances obtained in writing from the Kingdom Rapier Marshal at least 30
>>> days in advance such as for historical SCA theme events. Ansteorra’s Rapier
>>> authorizations permit use of Light Rapier blades at out of Kingdom events
>>> where allowed.*
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> Some individuals have suggested it be reworded as such:****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> *Ansteorra convention:** Except under the Youth Rapier Program, Light
>>> Rapier is to be eliminated outside of training within the borders of
>>> Ansteorra effective March 17th, 2013. After that date, Light Rapier
>>> blades can only be used with variances obtained in writing from the Kingdom
>>> Rapier Marshal at least 30 days in advance such as for historical SCA theme
>>> events. Ansteorra’s Rapier authorizations permit use of Light Rapier blades
>>> at out of Kingdom events where allowed.*
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> **·         **Cons:****
>>>
>>> **o   **The blades are allowed by Society and have not been proven to
>>> be unsafe so we need to allow them.****
>>>
>>> **o   **It eliminates part of our origins within SCA Fencing.****
>>>
>>> **o   **It is exclusionary of those who prefer lighter weight blades.***
>>> *
>>>
>>> **o   **It eliminates an option for those who are physically unable to
>>> use heavier blades.****
>>>
>>> **·         **Pros:****
>>>
>>> **o   **The blades are statistically non-existent comparing the
>>> possibly 10s of bouts to the 1000s of bouts per year.****
>>>
>>> **o   **Heavy blades are more historically accurate than light blades.**
>>> **
>>>
>>> **o   **A significant majority of the SCA kingdoms as well as most
>>> inter-kingdom wars have gone to heavy blades only.****
>>>
>>> **o   **The enforcement of the regulations around the lighter blades is
>>> lax at best creating a risk point.****
>>>
>>> **§  **Combatants being authorized without having shown to be safe.****
>>>
>>> **§  **Marshals being authorized without knowing how to inspect the
>>> equipment.****
>>>
>>> **o   **Light blades break more frequently than heavy blades elevating
>>> the risk due to lax enforcement.****
>>>
>>> ****
>>>
>>>   Please let me know right away if I misrepresented any of the above or
>>> missed a significant Pro or Con.****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>>   There were several side discussions, but I think these were the ones
>>> that spoke directly to the proposal.****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> In Service,****
>>>
>>> Pug****
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ansteorra-rapier mailing list
>>> Ansteorra-rapier at lists.ansteorra.org
>>> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ansteorra-rapier-ansteorra.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> “Measure what is measurable, and make measurable what is not so.”
>> Galileo Galilei
>>
>> Spanish Swordplay
>> http://www.destreza.us/
>>
>> Italian Swordplay
>> http://www.viahup.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Ansteorra-rapier at lists.ansteorra.org
>> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ansteorra-rapier-ansteorra.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> it is good to know, it is better to do, it is best to be.
>
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>
>


-- 
“Measure what is measurable, and make measurable what is not so.”
Galileo Galilei

Spanish Swordplay
http://www.destreza.us/

Italian Swordplay
http://www.viahup.com
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