[Ansteorra-rapier] Pros and Cons of change

Mon Oct 15 12:55:12 PDT 2012

I've known new fencers who like to warm up with light rapier and then switch over to heavy rapier. My understanding is that they feel that it makes it easier for them to mentally process the heavy rapier fight as it happens, instead of after. I never really explored it, but they believed they were having some success with that.

Candice / Caitilin

________________________________
From: Andrew Heinrich <andrew.heinrich at gmail.com>
To: Ansteorra RapierNet <ansteorra-rapier at lists.ansteorra.org> 
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2012 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-rapier] Pros and Cons of change

So, this begs a question for me -  

Why not train with the tool you intend to use on the field? Of what advantage is it to use, say, a Foil, to train with instead of the rapier you will fight with? I look at the foil and epee as *bad* training tools, because they teach all those bad habits (vis a vis the rapier) you mention in your post here. What are the benefits of using a foil like a rapier in training?

- Mateo

On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 12:47 PM, Puck Curtis <puck.curtis at gmail.com> wrote:

I have an additional Con. 
>
>
>Ansteorra's legacy culture resulted in significant transitional pain moving from the lighter blade technique to the heavier blade technique.  Specifically, I refer to the newer French foil/smallsword practice of parrying with the point on target (in presence) which was not safe practice with the heavier blades.  To parry with a bent wrist to keep the point maintained on the target was gospel when I was taught in Ansteorra but that doesn't fully close the line of offense.  Because the smaller (less massive and faster) blade's circular parries could compensate for the weaker defensive position this "legacy code" worked in a world primarily populated with lighter blades derived from a sporting tradition.  Ansteorra was a dominant SCA rapier power in the 1990s.
>
>
>Actual rapier practice as described in the manuals typically closes the line completely and redirects the point during the final stages of the counter-attack or riposte.  In contrast, the martial art as practiced by the Italians maximized defensive potential for as long as possible at the expense of offense.
>
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>Unfortunately, when the SCA world moved onward the light-blade sporting bias left Ansteorra behind with regards to high-level play with heavier blades.  Not only was the Ansteorran-classic tradition falling behind, a highly vocal portion of the population slavishly defended the point-in-line parries derived from the French sport tradition.  
>
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>"I can make circular parries just as quickly with my 42" rapier as I can with my foil."  
>(A statement which defies physics at every level.)
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>This counter-movement actively applied the brakes to the Ansteorran rapier tradition which was once a powerhouse of combat superiority.  As a result Ansteorra was left to slowly dig itself out of the French foil hole while other kingdoms barreled forward immersing themselves in historical practices targeted towards the popular heavier weapons of the present day.  The counter-movement is a boat anchor holding back the kingdom's rapier culture.  
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>When I left 10 years ago, Ansteorra was like a new computer running old legacy code and continuously crashing on the bugs.  The fencing was broken in funny ways and it needed to be re-tooled for the new hardware.  Our top guys were beginning to make the transition to heavy blades but that migration was not yet complete.  It may be that the kingdom has moved past these artifacts of French foil that were so pervasive while I was there but that would be in spite of the counter-movement's desire to keep these weapons around.  
>
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>If the training doesn't match the combat, you will lose.
>It's not rocket science.
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>All this and I should be the one presenting the argument for keeping foils.  They potentially make a great pedagogical tool for training with the rapier provided you don't use that crap smallsword technique.  For crying out loud I took 3 exams with these weapons and if I ended up in Ansteorra again tomorrow I would use foils and epees for training my crew.  But, I wouldn't stomp my foot and frothily demand that Ansteorra maintain tournament legal rules for these weapons.  Train with the pedagogy tool, fence in competition with the weapon.
>
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>~P.
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>On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 5:34 AM, Pug Bainter <pug at pug.net> wrote:
>
>Good Morning,
>> 
>>  We’ve given the discussion about five days now including a weekend and there appear to be no knew arguments for or against. Based off of that, I’m going to try to succinctly articulate the Pros and Cons of this change. To revisit, the proposed change was:
>> 
>>Ansteorra convention:Except under the Youth Rapier Program, Light Rapier is to be eliminated within the borders of Ansteorra effective March 17th, 2013. After that date, Light Rapier blades can only be used with variances obtained in writing from the Kingdom Rapier Marshal at least 30 days in advance such as for historical SCA theme events. Ansteorra’s Rapier authorizations permit use of Light Rapier blades at out of Kingdom events where allowed.
>> 
>>Some individuals have suggested it be reworded as such:
>> 
>>Ansteorra convention:Except under the Youth Rapier Program, Light Rapier is to be eliminated outside of training within the borders of Ansteorra effective March 17th, 2013. After that date, Light Rapier blades can only be used with variances obtained in writing from the Kingdom Rapier Marshal at least 30 days in advance such as for historical SCA theme events. Ansteorra’s Rapier authorizations permit use of Light Rapier blades at out of Kingdom events where allowed.
>> 
>> 
>>·         Cons:
>>o   The blades are allowed by Society and have not been proven to be unsafe so we need to allow them.
>>o   It eliminates part of our origins within SCA Fencing.
>>o   It is exclusionary of those who prefer lighter weight blades.
>>o   It eliminates an option for those who are physically unable to use heavier blades.
>>·         Pros:
>>o   The blades are statistically non-existent comparing the possibly 10s of bouts to the 1000s of bouts per year.
>>o   Heavy blades are more historically accurate than light blades.
>>o   A significant majority of the SCA kingdoms as well as most inter-kingdom wars have gone to heavy blades only.
>>o   The enforcement of the regulations around the lighter blades is lax at best creating a risk point.
>>§  Combatants being authorized without having shown to be safe.
>>§  Marshals being authorized without knowing how to inspect the equipment.
>>o   Light blades break more frequently than heavy blades elevating the risk due to lax enforcement.
>>  Please let me know right away if I misrepresented any of the above or missed a significant Pro or Con.
>> 
>>  There were several side discussions, but I think these were the ones that spoke directly to the proposal.
>> 
>>In Service,
>>Pug
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
>
>-- 
>“Measure what is measurable, and make measurable what is not so.”
>Galileo Galilei
>
>Spanish Swordplay
>http://www.destreza.us/
>
>Italian Swordplay
>http://www.viahup.com/
>
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