[Bards] Ansteorran History and trival
annescvb at gmail.com
Tue Jun 12 07:32:10 PDT 2007
*Dear Master Robin,*
*How do you do this!??! My goodness, my mind's vision has you sitting in the
middle of a vast library with the books leaping off the shelf at you. If you
have a particular trick in searching the internet, please share it. Wow.*
*On the subject of "Vivat" or "Vivet" or however you spell it, I remember a
time when HE, Master Bran de Tintreak, then Baron of The Stargate, tried to
get us to pronouce the word with a "W" sound not a "V" sound. It only worked
for a bit of time and I know that he was correct to do this but we follow
the heralds lead whenever we give an accolade in court.*
*How do you voice heralds feel about doing or needing to do the correct
pronounciation of our favorite accolade?*
On 6/11/07, Jay Rudin <rudin at ev1.net> wrote:
> Alden Drake wrote:
> > To the best of my knowledge, "vivat" is incorrect. Vivo, vivere, vixi,
> > victum (live) looks to me like a third conjugation verb, with the
> > stem vive-. So "he/she/it lives" would be vivet, not vivat. Were that
> > we were shouting "Vivet!", as "It lives", it could be in reference to
> > "The dream of the SCA", which I find rather fitting, as anyone getting
> > an award, or otherwise recognized or honored, is generally doing so
> > for living the dream, and so we recognize the dream lives in that
> This sounds reasonable, but very few verbs are completely regular. I
> looked up the actual conjugation in *501 Latin Verbs, Fully Conjugated and
> in All the Tenses*, by Richard E. Prior and Joseph Wohlberg, Barron's
> Educational Series, Inc., Haupaugge, NY, 1995. ISBN 780812-090505
> "Vivet" is third person singular future -- "he/she/it will live". "Vivit"
> is third person singular present - "he/she/it lives". And both are
> incorrect for our purposes. They are not grammatically correct, but more
> importantly, they aren't what was (and is) really used.
> "Vivat", which we are using. is third person singular subjunctive. "Vivat
> Rex" therefore literally means "The King should live." It's usually
> translated as "Long live the King," and has been for hundreds of years.
> There's an old Epicurean motto, used by the Porcellian Club (Pig Club) at
> Harvard and by Robert Heinlein in *Glory Road*: "Dum vivimus, vivamus",
> which means "While we live, let us live".
> So when somebody gets an award, and we are shouting "Vivat!", we are
> actually expressing the desire that they should continue to live. The
> thing we do that is grammatically incorrect is that when we are cheering
> more than one person, we should say "Vivant!" More importantly, we are
> following a period practice.
> The earliest reference I can find to the phrase "Vivat Rex" is the Old
> Testament. 1 Kings Chapter 1, verse 34, ends "And you shall sound the
> trumpet and say God save King Solomon". In the Vulgate, this is "et
> canetis buccina, atque dicetis: Vivat rex Salomon"
> It's found in Coronation ceremonies in the second recension of England's
> Coronation Ordo (Order of Coronation). It was also in the fourth
> recension, in 1308, for the Coronation of Edward II. Manuscripts don't
> agree on the form used. Some have "Vivat rex, vivat rex, vivat rex in
> eternum", but one has "Vivat rex, vivat rex in eternum. Alleluya".
> As near as I can tell, it's been used in all coronations since, including
> Queen Elizabeth II in 1953. As she entered the Quire, the Scholars of
> Westminster School shouted "Vivat Regina Elizabetha! Vivat! Vivat!
> Under the canopy of state in the royal palace of Hampton Court are the
> words "Vivat Henricus Octavus" embroidered in pearl.
> Sherborne School, which was refounded after the dissolution of the
> monasteries as King Edward's School, has the following words in its school
> song: " Vivat Rex Eduardus Sextus! Vivat!"
> A map of Mounster made not long after the rebellion was put down has a
> motto "Vivat Regina Elizabeth".
> The phrase "Vivat Rex" was used as the title of sermon preached on the
> subject of treason in 1683 at St. James 's Church in Bristol.
> The hymn "Non nobis Domine" has the following lines
> Ergo clamamus in coelum,
> Therefore we shall shout to heaven:
> Vivat Rex in aeternum! May
> the king live forever;
> Vivat Rex et Regina!
> Long live the king and queen!
> Moliere's *La Malade Imaginaire* ends with a verse that starts "Vivat,
> vivat, vivat, vivat", cheering for the doctor.
> There's is nothing wrong with "Vivat Rex! Vivat Regina! Vivat
> There's nothing wrong with "Vivat! as a cheer for a single person. They
> are both grammatical and a documented period usage. We use it a lot more
> than they did, but there's no intent on our part to allocate our
> in the same ratio that they did. We have Coronations more often than they
> did. And a *much* higher percentage of our people get titles.
> Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
> Bards mailing list
> Bards at lists.ansteorra.org
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
More information about the Bards