[Elfsea] Pennsic Story

Sat Aug 9 15:15:17 PDT 2003

I'm not going to argue with you about whether Iolo has been completely
wronged or whether they were justified in kicking him out.

My point is that people on both this list and others have called for actions
of different sort to be taken in Iolo's defense, and before anyone "takes
action" in the name of the barony, the WSA, or whatever other group, I
strongly suggest you look for more facts.

We *have* seen more information from other sources on the white scarf list,
and discussion there has pretty much ended.  I can't re-post from there to
here, but I can tell you that this doesn't appear to be the out of the blue,
completely unforseen attack that it was originally portrayed as.

The question about sites and sanitation is a different topic.  In one of the
posts on Elfsea list, someone asked why we continue to hold Pennsic at the
Cooper Ranch.  My response is that finding a site to host 10,000 to 14,000
people for two weeks is no small task.  For example, merely finding the
sanitation facilities for that many is a huge ordeal.

That's it.  My concern with the earlier posts is that I'd hate to see people
flying off half-cocked and cause further problems without really
understanding this one.  If you want to support Iolo, I strongly recommend
either a) buying crossbows or b) emailing Iolo privately and asking him how
he would like to see your support.

Valentyn

> -----Original Message-----
> From: elfsea-bounces at ansteorra.org
> [mailto:elfsea-bounces at ansteorra.org]On Behalf Of giles nemeton
> Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 4:01 PM
> To: Barony of Elfsea
> Subject: RE: [Elfsea] Pennsic Story
>
>
> I think someone has misunderstood the point I was
> trying to make.......if I had one, anyway.
>
> I know its a business, and I dont grudge the Coopers
> any of their profits.
>
> if rules are in place why has Iolo been ignorring them
> for 17 years(apparently)?
>
> why would it take Cindy 17 years to 'catch' him 'at
> it'?
>
> why did no-one inform Iolo that he was in the wrong,
> if he was?
>
> sanitation facilities,etc., are provided by the barony
>  in the area...ie. the SCA
>
> perhaps the whole story sounds somewhat odd to
> me...too many of the particulars dont make any sort of
> sense.
>
> cian
>
> --- Valentyn Drake <DonValentyn at JeffTurnerFiction.com>
> wrote:
> > It's a business, and it's owned by the Coopers.
> > Their rules are in place to
> > protect their interests, and we are expected to
> > abide by them.  This is no
> > different situation than one of us shopping at
> > Albertson's or gaining
> > permission to fight at Armand's warehouse -- in all
> > three places, the owner
> > sets expectations and the customer is expected to
> > follow the rules.  Pennsic
> > has one particular advantage over the other two: the
> > rules are actually in
> > print and available.  They've been quoted on the
> > white scarf list.
> >
> > Why does the SCA continue to use this ranch for
> > Pennsic?  Put things in
> > perspective...how much trouble did the Barony of
> > Elfsea have just finding a
> > new park for a 20-30 person fighter practice?  How
> > many sites can you think
> > of which can accomodate two weeks of thousands of
> > people?  Remember, the
> > sanitation facilities must be adequate to prevent
> > disease from breaking out
> > within that first week -- after you've tackled that
> > problem you can move on
> > to cost of rental, sources of fresh water, travel
> > logistics, etc.
> >
> > So, you've estimated that the Coopers make over
> > $100G each year from
> > Pennsic?  Good for them.  I'd advise everyone not to
> > pass judgments based on
> > your guesses to their profit margin.  Two points to
> > keep in mind: a) even if
> > they *profit* by hundreds of thousands of dollars,
> > that's their business --
> > they're probably not in it to lose money.  b) sure,
> > they're probably
> > grossing well over $100K.  I suspect the profit
> > margin is fairly low,
> > however.  Maintenance, taxes, and development of
> > land which can host a
> > 12,000 person even isn't cheap.
> >
> > I'm not pleased that Iolo's business has suffered.
> > I'll probably buy one of
> > his crossbows myself to help out.  However, there
> > are multiple sides to
> > every story, and before anyone does anything rash
> > (particularly before you
> > do anything rash in the name of your Barony) I'd
> > suggest you get at least
> > one more side to the this incident.
> >
> > Valentyn
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: elfsea-bounces at ansteorra.org
> > > [mailto:elfsea-bounces at ansteorra.org]On Behalf Of
> > giles nemeton
> > > Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 1:31 AM
> > > To: Barony of Elfsea
> > > Subject: Re: [Elfsea] Pennsic Story
> > >
> > >
> > > I have often wondered what we pay the Coopers for
> > the
> > > 'privilege' of using Coopers Lake campgrounds. I
> > > remember for Pennsic 14, I was told they got $10 a
> > > head at the gate plus their several little vending
> > > concerns----ice,washing machines, etc.(for 10,000
> > > peo-ple this would be $100,000+ for two weeks
> > rent)
> > >
> > > I have never had a bad time at Pennsic, and I have
> > > never met the lady in question. Some time ago
> > however
> > > I got the impression that the SCA was deeply
> > indebted
> > > to the Coopers for letting us use their site.
> > >
> > > I have often wondered why it was only held there
> > and
> > > not one of the many other campsites that are
> > > available.
> > >
> > > Cian
> > > one who would like to see 'the War of the King Who
> > > Declared War on Himself, and Then Lost' continue
> > >
> > > --- Sean Slattery <bogs at clubwielder.com> wrote:
> > > > What happened to Iolo seems to me to be
> > > > unnecessarily high handed on
> > > > Cindy Cooper's part.
> > > >
> > > > I also think that this situation is similar to
> > the
> > > > Pillaged Village
> > > > "problem" that occurred last year. A customer
> > came
> > > > after "closing
> > > > hours" to pick up something they had set aside
> > > > earlier in the day.
> > > > Their transaction was arranged well in advance
> > of
> > > > the established
> > > > closing time, and the Pillaged Village people
> > were
> > > > concluding in good
> > > > faith business already in progress; but when
> > Cindy
> > > > Cooper caught wind
> > > > of them being "open for business", she banned
> > them
> > > > from Pennsic this
> > > > year.
> > > >
> > > > Her actions appear to foreshadow a disturbing
> > and
> > > > disappointing trend.
> > > > A few years ago, there would have been some
> > > > discussion and an
> > > > opportunity for remedial action in any situation
> > > > like this. If Cindy
> > > > Cooper has known about this "problem" for
> > "years,"
> > > > she should have had
> > > > someone talk to Iolo long before throwing him
> > off
> > > > the Pennsic site.
> > > > ...like "years" ago.
> > > >
> > > > As an aside, I have always understood fair
> > warning
> > > > to be a part of any
> > > > due process...
> > > >
> > > > YIS,
> > > > Beowulf
> > > >
> > > > On Friday, Aug 8, 2003, at 17:29 US/Central,
> > willow
> > > > Taylor wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I wish sometimes people would warn people of
> > > > problems. I am sure the
> > > > > SCA
> > > > > officials knew he was doing it. I know none of
> > us
> > > > want to be the bad
> > > > > guy
> > > > > but sometimes we need to bite the bullet and
> > tell
> > > > people there is a
> > > > > problem. I know in Ansteorra,me and other
> > nobles
> > > > have made a bad name
> > > > > for
> > > > > ourselves by interfering in similar
> > situations,
> > > > but it better for us to
> > > > > be involved than the police or property owners
> > > > getting involved.
> > > > >
> > > > > Willow de Wisp
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:23:57 -0500
> > > > TWMarsh at TarrantCounty.com writes:
> > > > >> Don Aeron Harper sent me this Pennsic story:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Master Iolo Fitzowen, the newest Lion of
> > > > Ansteorra, who has sold
> > > > >> crossbows
> > > > >> at the Pennsic war for 17 years, sets up a
> > canvas
> > > > backstop so that
> > > > >> his
> > > > >> customers can test fire his bows with
> > SCA-legal
> > > > boffer arrows. He
> > > > >> has done
> > > > >> this every year that he has been at that or
> > any
> > > > other war. Every day
> > > > >> all day
> > > > >> boffer arrows hit the canvas and drop
> > harmlessly
> > > > to the ground.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> This year, on Thursday, Cindy Cooper walked
> > up
> > > > with a Marshal in tow
> > > > >> and
> > > > >> told him that what he was doing is against
> > the
> > > > rules.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Iolo replied "Oh. Well I've been doing it for
> > 17
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
> =====
> MORITURI NOLUMUS MORI......
> _______________________________________________
> Elfsea mailing list
> Elfsea at ansteorra.org
> http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/elfsea
>

____________________________________________________________
Free 20MB Web Site Hosting and Personalized E-mail Service!
Get It Now At Doteasy.com http://www.doteasy.com/et/