ANSTHRLD - Coronets or fillets?

John Ruble jruble at
Mon Feb 16 08:58:12 PST 1998

Alright, Daniel, here's the references I was talking about... 
Rodney Dennys, "Heraldry and the Heralds". Butler & Tanner, Ltd. London:
1982. ISBN 0-224-01643-1.  I also commend to you his other works,
including "The Heraldic Imagination".

He refers to Bartolo's "De Insigniis et Armis", written 1354. To wit:
"It is useful to have a grant of arms from a prince, because they are
thereby publicised and cannot be prohibited by another.  They are also
of greater dignity and, if two men bear the same arms, the preference is
given to him who had them from a prince."

Also referenced was Nicholas Upton's "De Studio Militari", written about
1446. In speaking of an individual assuming arms, Upton stated, "I say,
however, that Arms so assumed, though they be borne freely and lawfully,
yet cannot be of such dignity or authority as those which are daily
bestowed by the authority of Princes or lords."

So you see, both period sources speak of nobles other than the king
granting arms, and of the rank of the granter deciding whose were more

As a side note, while Upton did not think heralds alone should grant
arms, he had done so for a squire of the Earl of Salisbury while on the
staff this earl, and the earl had granted arms to one of his

- -Ulf

> Ulf wrote:
> > The nobility knew a good thing when
> > they saw it, and started "granting" arms to individuals.
> Do you have any evidence of nobles granting arms?  Also,
> what jurisdictions other than in Britain had granted arms?
> (I think they existed; I dimly recall that some French arms
> were granted by the Crown.  I'd just like to know the
> scope.)
> > The rank of the granter,
> > not the grantee, decided which was more valid.
> Excuse me?  When there were courts of chivalry, there were
> various factors involved.  The famous Scrope vs. Grovenor
> case had political implications (Scrope being powerful with
> the king), and neither set of arms were granted by anyone.
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