ANSTHRLD - Associated checks for device: Sable, a sextant Or.

[Amy Forsyth]

OK, I'll nip this now.  

Yes, it is Christoforo's device, and, contrary to previous research, it IS
period  ----  just not in the form that Christoforo originally drew it and
not as a navigational instrument.  It *was* used as an astrological
instrument in the VERY late 16th c. --- sans reflective mirrors.  It was a
very large, stationary instrument and it was used facing up at an angle.
That's about all I can give you since the documentation is at home, but I
think I read that the idea was put down on paper in the 1580's and the
instrument was in actual use in the 1590's in Prague.  The documentation I
have has a woodcut of the instrument.  I had previously found reference to
the astro. sextant in one or two other books.

Christoforo balked at having an astronomical instrument, and asked that
"quadrant" to be checked.  But Kathri is very good at pointing out little
details such as 'a submission doesn't need to be signed.'  It's very
tempting to draw it up and send it through with the documentation; and you
may yet see it as a badge.

So, we're really looking at both sextant and quadrant.  Both are clear, as
far as I could find.  Quickly flipping through the PicDic, I couldn't find
any problems.  What I don't know are those obscure items --- like some of
the knots and the items that Teceangl posted.  Another problem is that my
resources are more limited now compared to what they were at the time of
the original submission.  I'm not even sure I could locate pictures of what
Teceangl posted.  

So, Christoforo is looking at quadrant...... I'm still trying to sway him
back over to sextant (since it took me 2 years to find him the
documentation he just *knew* was out there).  He's been hemming and hawing
back and forth on this now for almost 2 more years, letting the resub. date
pass.  It's now at a point where either he's going to submit what he wants,
or it's going to get submitted for him.  And with him it's one or the
other, not both on one device. 

This visual check is the deciding factor in 'his' criteria.  If there's a
problem with either one, then he'll go with the other.  If they're both
good, and he *still* can't decide --- then I might be having some fun.... 


~Adela
(Christoforo's wife)

At 12:21 PM 9/13/99 -0500, you wrote:
>On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Teceangl <tierna at agora.rdrop.com> wrote:
>> Kathri wrote:
>> > I have a potential submitter who believes that 'Sable, a sextant
>> > Or" is clear of conflict
>>
>> Is it?  What entry?  I find the quadrant, but there are no sextants
>> in SCA armory that I can find, and the date of invention according
>> to encyclopedia.com is 1731, while the quadrant is said to have been
>> "used to find latitude in medieval times".
>
>Ooo, good point!  Yes, you're right.  The sextant has been returned
>in-kingdom in the past.  Wait, I have Collated Commentary on-line -- I
>can search.  I remember it being spelled "sextent", and various jokes
>being made.  (flip flip flip)
>
>Christoforo Antonio Passavanti (Twr Cath), New Name, New Device, item
>2 on the 1/96 ILoI.  Son of a gun, it's "Sable a sextent Or".  Same
>guy, Kathri?
>
>This is the collated commentary from the time.  Da'ud:
>
>    [Device] According to the OED, the first reference to a sextant
>    (with an "a".  A "sex-tent" would have other, non-navigational,
>    uses entirely. :-) ) is in a book published in 1603 in which the
>    author claims to have invented it.  This makes it a post-period
>    artifact and thus inappropriate for use in SCA armory.  Would the
>    client consider the more widely used and period navigational
>    instrument, the astrolabe?
>
>Talan wrote:
>
>    [Device] 'sextent' is presumably a temporary brothel; the
>    submitter appears to want a sextant.  We've never registered the
>    charge before, though Trimaris registered the title Sextant Herald
>    12/85, so I expect that Laurel will require evidence that the
>    device is period.  According to the OED, Tycho Brahe wrote in 1602
>    that he gave the name to the instrument.  (The name was already in
>    use with another meaning.)  From this I infer that the device was
>    probably period, though very late; it may have changed form
>    somewhat in the last 400 years, however so, some documentation to
>    show that this is a period design is probably needed.
>
>Bryn Gwlad:
>
>    [Device] We could not find any examples of a sextant in the
>    Ordinary.  Is this the defining instance of the charge, and if so,
>    do we need to see documentation of this drawing as a period
>    representation?  No conflicts found.
>
>Stargate:
>
>    [Device]  We would need evidence that a sextant is a period charge.
>
>Twr Cath:
>
>    [Device] (Clear.)  Yes, the sextent can be fed.  The submitter can
>    provide a better (i.e. well fed) drawing if necessary.  Usage of
>    the sextent dates to as early as the 1530's (Copernicus).
>
>Steppes:
>
>    [Device]  We wonder how many commenters will NOT make jokes on the
>    blazon.  ...
>
>    The OED says that Tycho Brahe claimed he named it in 1602, though
>    the Encyclopedia Britannica (1952 ed.) says that John Hadley
>    invented it in 1731.  Serena notes that, for example, the word
>    "scrimshaw" is 18th C, but we saw the form at the Assyrian
>    exhibit, so the object may predate the current word.
>
>    This charge has not been registered previously in the SCA.  This
>    would be the defining instance.  We should be provided with
>    documentation that this is a period depiction.
>
>Delphina/Ragnar:
>
>    [Device] This is an excellent drawing of a modern sextant.
>    However the sextant was invented in 1731 by John Hadly.  The
>    navigation instrument used through our period would have been the
>    Astrolabe.  Unless documentation can be provided that this
>    instrument was used in period it should to be returned.
>
>Oh, and Blacklake:
>
>    Well designed, period sextent and good placement of blazons.
>
>It was returned at the 10 March 1996 meeting, printed on page 8 of the
>April 1996 AG, saying
>
>    "Sable, a sextant Or" is rturned under General Principal 1a of the
>    RfS (Compatible Content).
>
>("All submissions shall be period in content.")
>
>Daniel "what, he figured we're gonna forget or something?  wait,
>*I* did" de Lincolia
>-- 
>                   *** NEW HOME E-MAIL ADDRESS ***
>Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net; 
>if that fail, my work addresses are  tmcd at austin.ibm.com and tmcd at us.ibm.com.
>tmcd at tmcd.austin.tx.us is a lie; tmcd at crl.com is old and will go away.
>
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