ANSTHRLD - Name help please

Kathleen O'Brien kobrien at
Fri Sep 8 09:30:39 PDT 2000

Congratulations, Robert.  You have done lots of great homework here!

>and named after the river or the region.  So the name 'Kenmare' IS period, 
>but was not applied to a town in period.  

If we can document towns named after rivers in period, that takes care of
this issue. 

Let me do some work this weekend on "Kenmare" as a plausible period town
name...  Regardless of when the real town was actually founded, if
"Kenmare" follows period construction patterns, it should be useable as a
town in an order name.

>    I have a photocopy of a list of period orders from the book "Orders of 
>Knighthood, awards and the Holy See."  by Cardinale, Hyginus Eugene.  

Ooooh...!  Lists of period examples!  The element that's usually missing
from order name submissions!  Wow!  Hey, Robert, when you get this project
all finished, wanna write an article about period order names?  It could be
as simple or as complicated as you want...

>A common pattern in naming Orders in the SCA seems to be:  The Order of the 
>[THING] of [PLACE]   'place' generally being the name of the branch.

Do we have examples of it where the place is _not_ a branch?  Either
registered examples or period examples of this construction?

>Some period patterns I've seen include:
>    The Order of [THING]
>    The Order of [PERSON]       With "person" almost always being a Saint
>    The Order of [PLACE]        With "place"  pretty much always being a
>or city
>    The Order of [PERSON] OF [PLACE]
>    The Order of [TRAIT]            i.e. Mercy, Silence, Ransom, jubilation 
>    The Order of Our Lady of [THING], [PLACE], [TRAIT]
>    Can we simply name it after the person, i.e.,  "The Order of Kendra 
>Kenmare"?  The name was registered Sept. 92 and we can get a letter from her 
>husband releasing the name to the Barony for this use.  Naming orders after 
>people is a period practice, would the person have to be a Saint for this to 
>be permisable?  

If all of the period examples of orders named for people are named for
Saints, then the order would have to be constructed as "Order of Saint
<name>".  If you can find examples of orders named for people who were not
saints, then "The Order of Kendra Kenmare" may follow those patterns.

>    Can we name the order  "The [THING] of Kenmare" with Kenmare being the 
>region, or perhaps the town and convince the CoH to cut us a little slack 
>over the date, since the name "Kenmare" is period?  

If "Kenmare" follows period construction practices for a town name
(regardless of when it _actually_ became a town), it should be usable in as
a town name in an order name.  

>    Could we register something usng 'Kenmare' as an adjective such as: "The 
>Order of the Kenmare Lilly"?

If you have examples of a location used as an adjective, then this form
should be registerable.  Otherwise, "The Order of the Lily of Kenmare"
should follow the [thing] of [placename] construction.  I don't know of any
precedents that require the placename to be your group's name, so this
construction may be registerable.

>    Can we name our order "The Order of Our Lady of Kenmare"?  It's a very 
>period pattern, and my personal favorite.  

If you have documentation for "The Order of Our Lady of <placename>", then
this should be a registerable construction.

>    What about "The Order of the Company of Kenmare" or "The Order of the 
>Kenmare Company" ?

There is a precedent against "Order" + "Company":

"Note: Order of the Red Company is registered to the Middle Kingdom, and
therefore this usage is grandfathered to them. Normally we would not
register a name with two designators. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR February
1998, p. 8)"

>    Any help or suggestions will be very much appreciated.  I would like to 
>get this issue resolved.  

There are 2 sections of the RfS that you will want to take into
consideration with this submission.  they are:

   b. Non-Personal Names - Branch names, names of orders and awards,
heraldic titles, and household names must consist of a designator that
identifies the type of entity and at least one descriptive element. Common
designators are Shire, Barony, Guild, House, Order of the, and Herald. The
designator must be appropriate to the status of the submitter. Society
branches may use the designator established by Corpora for their category
of group or any authorized alternative form. The designator may be included
as part of a one-word name if the authorized form was used that way in
period, like the English word shire, which appears as a part of the
one-word name Worcestershire.

   ii. Names of Orders and Awards - Names of orders and awards must follow
the patterns of the names of period orders and awards.  These are often the
names of saints; others are similar to sign names (see RfS III.2.a.iii).
Some examples are: the Order of Saint Michael, the Order of Saint Maurice
and Saint Lazarus, the Brethren of the Sword, the Order of the Garter, La
Toison d'Or (the Order of the Golden Fleece), the Order of the Golden Rose,
the Order of the Star, the Order of the Swan, La Orden de la Jara (the
Knights of the Tankard), the Order of Lilies.

I hope this helps.  I'll see what support I can dig up for "Kenmare" as a
plausible period town name.  (If Magnus doesn't beat me to it.  <grin!>)

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