ANSTHRLD - "Rank" Question

Timothy A. McDaniel tmcd at
Fri Jan 26 09:11:22 PST 2001

Griffin / "Samuel Moon" <lord_housemythos at> wrote:
> I had noticed that Atlantia's heraldic titles were rank specific,
> rather than position specific.
> In Ansteorra, you are accorded the rank of your position.  I am a
> Herald ... because I hold the office of Bordure
> Have we ever done it the Atlantian way in Ansteorra?

Yes.  I think it was a reform of Tadhg Liath, circa 1990, to fix that
-- at least that was the sort of thing he liked to do.  Before, we
might have "Zodiacus Herald" succeeded by "Zodiacus Cornet", if one
was high-ranking and the other was new.  (Another reform was getting
rid of the "title" 'Cornet', which was invented out of whole cloth by
the SCA.)

It was a reform because real heralds do it like Ansteorra.  In the
English College of Arms, "Clarenceux" and "Norroy and Ulster" are
always "King of Arms".  "Richmond" is always a "Herald".  "Rouge
Croix" is always a "Pursuivant".  (The titles and ranks of the English
College of Heralds are listed at
Although they don't say that title and rank stay together, it is true,
I assure you.)

> It seems the Atlantian way encourages a "career" interest

It seems to *you*.  *I* am more impressed by the work people have done
than by a "permanent rank" granted by Star.

Further, Ansteorra has more heraldic titles registered than most other
kingdoms.  We certainly have more titles than England, although we
have a *lot* more submissions to deal with.

Further, if they want a spiffy title, let them take a job that has
that title attached.

Further, I have vague feelings of "the work ought to be its own
rewards" and "the nation with the fanciest uniforms loses the war".

> Pursuivant Extraordinary

I have suspicions about the authenticity of that title as we use it.
That English CoA Web page notes that "officers in ordinary" are
members of the College of Arms, and that "Heralds Extraordinary" are
*not* members.  Yet we consider PEs to be members of the College of
Heralds, they do *not* have specific job names as in England (e.g.,
Wales Herald Extraordinary), and ours are not just ceremonial titles
but have powers.  (The closest analogue to the English situation is
our Militant Arm.)

On the other hand, "ordinary" can mean
    1 a (1) : a prelate exercising original jurisdiction over a
    specified territory or group
so to say that someone without a jurisdiction is "extraordinary"
(meaning not incredible praise but simply 'not in ordinary') is a
reasonable extension of the eclessiastical usage.

Daniel de Lincolia
Tim McDaniel is tmcd at; if that fail,
    tmcd at is my work account.
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