[ANSTHRLD] commentary on July Iloi Commentary

doug bell magnus77840 at hotmail.com
Tue Jul 24 09:56:30 PDT 2001


This is commentary for July so far.  Please see if you
find any errors or surprises.  I would like to correct
them before it goes to Retarius.

Magnus von Lubeck

1) Adelaide de Bourbon (Adlersruhe)
[Device] The leg is rather high for passant but I have seen leopards
and lions passant drawn that way from period heraldry.

2) Agrippina Argyra (Bjornsborg)
[Badge] Clear of Roland O'Donnell December 1992: "Purpure, a tower
within an orle of lions rampant Or."  One CD for change of type of
secondary and a second for number.  An orle of charges equates to a
semy under precedents and usually involves 9 or more which is a CD
from 5.

3) Anne Elizabeth Ross (Steppes)
[Device] A thistle proper is vert with a bloom purpure.

4) Brigid of Kincairn (Stonebridge Keep)
[Name] Brigid: Withycombe gives this spelling and it looks like
Middle Irish from the text.  The English form was Bridgett but
we regularly register Brigid with an English name.
Kincairn: This is more difficult to construct and will take more
research before commentary is due.
[Device] Blazon as "Gyronny Or and sable, a lozenge with a bordure
azure" since the fusil has no independent existance outside of an
ordinary.

5) Christiana O'Ruarke (Weisenfeurer)
[Name] O'Ruarke looks like a modern spelling of the name.  At any
rate it is anglicized rather than Gaelic so it isn't a mix of
languages.  O Ruairc would be a late period spelling from the documents.
[Device] "Sable, in pale a swan naiant and a rose argent." This
lovely design involves two very common SCA charges and the
conflicts possible are legion.  Many of them revolve around
primary vs secondary charge groups.
1. Consider Æduuard of Haxeholm November 1993: "Sable, masoned
argent, a rose and a chief embattled argent."  There is no CD
for the field or the masoning (which was news to me).  There is
a CD for change of type for removing the chief which is a secondary
and a CD for change of type to half of the primary by adding the
swan to the primary group.  I don't believe X.1 or X.2 will help
since we aren't affecting the entire primary group.  "[(Fieldless)
On a tower sable masoned Or, a lion's head argent] Conflict with
Frederic of the West Tower, Argent, a tower sable, on its base a
cross patonce voided argent. Upon examining the emblazon for
Frederic, it is clear that the cross is argent, so there is only
the CD for fieldlessness. [Implying no CD for the masoning.]
[Thomas of Calais, 6/99, R-Atlantia]"
2. Enola of Ensconce August 1979: "Sable, a white garden rose
bendsinsterwise slipped and leaved proper, distilling un gout de
sang between a mullet and a sun cross argent."  Again a CD for
adding the swan to the primary group and a CD for removing
the secondary group mullet and sun cross.
3. Elayna Amavia June 1986: "Sable, a chevron inverted and in chief
a rose argent, barbed vert, seeded of a heart gules."  CD change to
type of primary group, removing secondary group.  X.1 also applies
here to clear it since we remove the primary charge of the chevron.
4. Katerina von Halberstadt December 1998: "Sable, a chevron rompu
and in base a rose argent."  X.1 also applies here to clear it since
we remove the primary charge of the chevron.  So it looks clear of
conflict, I hope.

6) Daniel de Bourdon (Adlersruhe)
[Device] The submitter should withdraw the item so the corrected one
can be submitted.

7) Dior Alagrant (Bryn Gwlad)
[Device] add "...on a winged stag salient to sinister"  There has
been some discussion on slot machine heraldry with this device.  If
the lance is small enough to be a maintained charge it is OK.  If it
is large enough to be sustained then it is a slot machine return.
  The lance is much larger than the woman carrying it.  A lance has
been registered as maintained before Pawel Aleksander od Zerania May
of 1986 (via the East): "Azure, a man armed cap-a-pie and
maintaining a lance and shield argent, between in chief two plates."
  January 1999 LoAR Béibhinn Ní Dhonnamháin. Name and device. "Vert,
a falcon close contourny and a lion rampant Or maintaining between
them a sword argent, on a chief Or a harp vert. Note: this is not
slot machine since the sword is maintained and not sustained."
  January 1998 LoAR Sean Cullin Redhawk. Device. "Quarterly argent
and sable, in saltire a sword inverted bendwise sinister proper and
an eagle's talon bendwise, clasping a roundel gules.  This is being
returned for violation our rule on slot machine, three different
charges in the same charge group. If a charge is sustaining another
it is considered two different charges in the same group, unlike a
maintained charge."

8) Elizabeth Curry (Brad Leah)
[Household Name] The conflict has been cleared and it is also clear
of Calygreyhound Herald June 1991.  This establishes both the name
and the designator as period 15th-16th century. English Sign Names
by Mari Elspeth nic Bryan
http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/inn/#Animals gives Grayhound
from 1522 as an inn sign.

10) Étaín O’Rourke (Brad Leah)
[Name] The name given is actually Étaín.  This is a Gaelic name mixed
with Anglicized byname.  O’Rourke looks like the modern spelling of
the name but we still register it.  It can be put in Gaelic as Étaín
ingen uí Ruairc.
[Device] It is a chess rook not a pawn.

11) Évrard de Mâcon (Brad Leah)
[Name] de Mâcon: Dauzat, Noms de Famille, page 403 s.n. Macon has the
name orginating as de Mâcon.

12) Gates Edge, Canton of
[Badge] There was some concern about how to blazon the gauntlet
grasping the top or the bottom of the fetterlock.

13) Gavin MacIain (Trelac)
[Device] "Per chevron checky vert and argent and vert, in base a hawk
rising wings displayed and inverted argent."  versus Jehan de la
Marche January 1973: "Gules, a crow rising, pierced by an arrow,
both argent."  One CD for the field and another for crow vs hawk.
  versus Llewellan Gwynn June 1987: "Per fess indented of two points
sable and argent, in chief an eagle rising argent."  One CD for the
field.  There shouldn't be a CD for type for eagle vs hawk.  There
isn't a CD for change of position because it is forced by the argent
checky field.  So conflict.

14) Ivo Blackhawk (Mooneschadowe)
[Device] "Argent, two chevronels gules and overall an eagle displayed
sable."  versus Caitlin Stuart May 1982: "Argent, two chevronels
gules, overall a dragon passant sable, gorged of a crown embattled,
dependent therefrom a chain Or."  There is a CD for change of type
and should be for change of posture from displayed to passant.

15) Katrine la Escolpiera (Northkeep)
[Name] If she wants Kateryne this article documents it.  If you need
assistance with name documentation, please ask.  There is no reason
to send in a name with no documentation nowadays.
http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/dymock/dym_women.html
Feminine Given Names in the Registers of the Church of St. Mary's,
Dymock (Gloucestershire, England: 1538-1600) by Mari Elspeth nic
Bryan  Kateryne dated to 1539.
[Device] This must be returned for slot machine heraldry.

16) Kimball Ross (Steppes)
[Name] Kimbel is the closest spelling that could be found.

17) Líadan of Sparewehavene (Mooneschadowe)
[Name] Líadan: Gaelic given name.  O Corrain also gives her as the
mother of St Ciaran which places it around 530 and I don't find the
name later in any of the Annals.  So this appears to be an Old Irish
saints name.
Sparewehavene: Reaney & Wilson page 221 s.n. Haven gives Nigel de
Hauen 1200 'dweller by the harbor' from Old English.  Bardsley, page
706 s.n. Sparrow gives Adam Sparowe 1379 and Robert Sparrow 1529.
  Given the example of Keyhaven, Sparowehaven or Sparrowhaven is a
plausible name for a harbor frequented by large flocks of sparrows
or near an estate with the surname Sparrow.
When you try to combine these period names things go haywire.  The
first is Old Irish and the second is Middle English.  Gaelic didn't
form locatives this way and they were extremely rare, at best.
  There is also a 600 to 1000 year time difference between the two
names.  I really don't know how to correct the construction
problems.  I can only quote Bryn Gwlad, "Leah is found on p. 192 of
Withycombe, who says, It was first used as a Christian name in
England by 17th C. Puritans. A possible alternative spelling, Lia,
is dated to 1191 on p. 65 of Reaney & Wilson (under Bristow). Anna
is dated to 1031-1060 in France on p. 25 of Withycombe (under Ann)."
  Leah is also a Jewish name in period England.  Lia Annas of
Sparowehaven may be documentable but the construction problems
plagueing this name won't go away.
[Device] This corrects the contrast problem but we don't know the
color of the sparrows.  The original submission was grayish brown.
Some sparrows are brown and some are gray so how to define a sparrow
proper?  The only two registered sparrows proper couldn't be
registered today due to the Linnaean heraldry ban.  Possibly we
could reblazon this a brown sparrow proper if we knew the color.
  Douglas of Roteland March 1981: "Argent, perched on an axe fesswise
sable a sparrow [Passer domesticus] close contourny proper, in chief
a Latin cross vert."  Ignatius of Man April 1980: "Vert, on a
chevron argent between three pine trees on mounts Or three English
sparrows [Passer domesticus] close proper."

18) Malachi Morgan (Westgate)
[Device] Blazon as "Per bend sable and gules, a bend cotised between
two lions argent."

19) Monica de la Cueva (Brad Leah)
[Device] The bordure needs to be wider but this clears the conflict
with Granada.

21) Muirenn Faulkner (Westgate)
[Device] "Argent, a falcon sable and on a chief sable three
fountains."  versus Jennifer Keruer January 1992: "Argent, a
Cornish chough and on a chief embattled sable three plates." One CD
for embattling the chief and one for Cornish chough vs falcon, see
January 2000 Cover letter.  versus Alesia de Maris of Ravenstar
December 1987: "Argent, a raven close, on a chief sable three
mullets Or."  One CD for changes to tertiary and one for raven vs
falcon, see January 2000 Cover letter.

26) Sorcha ingen Ragnaill (Eldern Hills)
[Name] Sorcha: The name is Gaelic. "Annals of the Four Masters,
Volume 4" M1500.18 http://www.ucc.ie/celt/online/G100005D/ gives
Sorcha inghen Philip mic Tomais dated to 1500.
Ragnaill: http://www.ucc.ie/celt/online/G100011/ Annála Connacht
1306.3 gives Ragnaill from 1306.  So this dates both names within
200 years in Middle Irish Gaelic.

27) Wilhelm von Winkleried (Namron)
[Device] Please note that these are octofoils per Brooke-Little and
not Mamluk rosettes.  For some reason the submitter has had trouble
with this on past submissions at Laurel.


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