ANSTHRLD - Excerpts of returns: December LoAR in Da'uded text
Timothy A. McDaniel
tmcd at jump.net
Wed Mar 21 17:44:16 PST 2001
Some of these actions or precedents are not innovations (nothing new
about withdrawing, frex). I just thought it might be educational for
some to see some things that can cause return at Laurel. I'm going to
remove a lot of obvious conflict calls.
Later: OK, there weren't any really obvious conflict calls. There's
quite a variety of reasons for returns, actually. I'll add comments
in [square brackets] for what I think was illustritive.
From: Elsbeth Laurel <herald at sca.org>
Subject: December LoAR in Da'uded text
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 18:11:25 -0500
THE FOLLOWING HAVE BEEN RETURNED FOR FURTHER WORK
{AE}THELMEARC
Corvinus filius Nennii. Name.
The documentation was not adequately summarized in the LoI. Since
the College did not provide documentation either, this will have
to be returned as per the May LoAR cover letter. Even after
seeing the documentation submitted instead of just the summary on
the LoI, it is unclear whether Corvinus is in fact a given name.
His device is registered under the holding name Daniel of the
Debatable Lands.
[Two reasons for return, each sufficient on their own.
Insufficient documentation on the letter to the College of Arms,
and the CoA didn't save it.
Insufficient documentation period.
His armory was registered anyway under an administrative holding name.]
Hroswith of Southwoods. Name.
This submission was withdrawn.
[There are various reasons why a kingdom submission herald might
withdraw a submission. The submitter's request is the most
obvious. They may have found an undebatable conflict, though it
would be rare to withdraw it then: better to just let Laurel
return it. There might be an administrative problem involving the
kingdom with this one.]
Meadhbh inghean Sh{e'}amuis. Device. Argent, a dragon passant within
an orle purpure.
Conflict with Alberad von Westerwanna, cited in the letter of
intent, Argent, a dragon statant purpure breathing flames proper,
in dexter chief a cauldron purpure. There is a CD for changing a
cauldron to an orle, but the orle's position on the field is
forced, so there is not a second CD for changing the position of
the secondary charge.
[The RfS says that there's no CD for a forced change of position.
Interestingly, it doesn't say about other forced changes. For
example, if it had been three cauldrons, then there's be a CD for
type and number, even though a device can only have one orle.]
Sara of Cambridge. Device. Sable, a compass star and on a chief
rayonny Or three roses gules.
Conflict with ... While the LoI stated that she
has permission to conflict, documentation of this permission was
not sent to Laurel.
["Non scriptum, non est", 'if it's not in writing, it doesn't
exist', is one motto of the College of Arms. The other is "Semper
litteris mandate", 'Always get it in writing'.]
AN TIR
Beatrice Domenici della Campana. Badge. Vert, a mazer and in chief
three lemons two and one fracted to base distilling gouttes Or.
Conflict with Graffico de Drell, Vert, entwined about a chalice
Or, a serpent head to sinister sable. The serpent is not
significant, therefore there is only one CD for the addition of
the secondary charges. We would also like to see evidence of
lemons or other fruit depicted this way in period heraldry.
[It's not completely clear to me whether the non-standard fracting
of the lemons is a second cause for return: "We would also like to
see" is weaker than "We need to see". It *probably* is a second
cause for return.]
Darbie of Ironmaid. Reblazon of device. Per pale sable and argent, two
dragons statant erect respectant counterchanged breathing flames
proper, a chief per pale ermine and counter-ermine.
We do not blazon tails in this position (curled loosely
underneath). If she redraws the device so that the tails are
coward, then we can include the tail position in the blazon.
[Didn't we have something like this not so long ago?]
Robert of Hawthorne. Device. Gules, a cubit arm sustaining a bow
fesswise argent.
By Laurel precedent (see the November 1994 LoAR, Cyril Bowman,
pg. 12), the cubit arm/bow combination is disallowed by rule RfS
VII.7.a "Identification Requirement" as it not sufficiently
distinguishable from a cross bow. It is thus also in conflict
with Triaria de la Rivi{'e}re, Gules, a crossbow between four
thistles in cross argent, with only a CD for the addition of
secondary charges.
Terra Pomaria, Barony of. Order name Apple Blossom Award.
No documentation was submitted for the order name, and the College
did not provide any documentation either.
Terra Pomaria, Barony of. Order name Order of the Azure Iris.
[ditto]
Terra Pomaria, Barony of. Order name Silver Apple Award.
[ditto]
Terra Pomaria, Barony of. Order name Silver Otter Award.
[ditto]
Terra Pomaria, Barony of. Order name Order of the White Scroll.
[ditto]
[Groups get no special slack, and Laurel is quite willing to
cut-and-paste return texts.]
ANSTEORRA
Gwenlliana de Verdun. Name.
No forms were sent to Laurel.
[Non scriptum, non est.]
Muriel FitzLloyd. Device. Ermine, a talbot rampant contourny pean.
No forms were sent to Laurel. In addition, according to the
Letter of Intent, this was submitted as a device for the alternate
name Martin Fitzhug. Please inform the submitter that she may
only have one device; if she wishes to submit arms for her
alternate person it must be submitted as a badge and on a badge
form.
["Fitzhug"? It is true that all the records for a person are
filed under that person's registered primary SCA name, and that
person may have at most one device.]
Thomas atte Woode. Name.
This conflicts with Thomas Attwood (1783-1856), an English
economist and leader in the electoral reform movement. Since he
has his own entry in the on-line Encyclopaedia Britannica he is
important enough to protect.
[Inclusion in the EB is sufficient to get a name ruled
sufficiently famous to protect under Admin Handbook III.A.3]
ARTEMISIA
Celestine of Arn Hold. Device. Per saltire purpure and vert, a swan
rousant contourny argent.
Conflict with Margarete Rau, registered November 2000, Per saltire
purpure and vert, a swan rousant contourny wings displayed
argent. There is only a single CD for the position of the wings
(displayed vs. addorsed).
[Wing position alone can be a CD. Wing tincture too, and presence
/ absence of wings on something for which wings are optional (to
wit: dragons were sometimes winged, sometimes not).]
Dragonmarch, Shire of. Device. Quarterly sable and argent, a dragon
passant Or impaled on a sword inverted bendwise proper all within a
laurel wreath Or.
The petition did not include a description or picture of the
proposed arms. In addition, we are concerned about the
identifiability of the sword, as it is almost completely covered
by the dragon.
[Non scriptum, non est again. Bruce Draconarius had a precedent
where he gave some slack to a group -- to the effect of "For all I
know, it was a petition to serve ice cream at fighter practice.
I'll give them the benefit of the doubt". The benefit has run
out.]
Madoc Kynith. Device. Argent, a goutte de sang within a vol throughout
sable.
While technically clear, this is in visual conflict with Hrolfr
Lombungr, Argent, a pair of batwings conjoined sable, in chief a
goutte de sang. While the goutte is a primary charge in the
current device and a secondary charge in the conflict, the visual
similarity is overwhelming.
[RfS X.5 visual conflict calls, like this one, are rare.]
Marcus Caecilius Existimator. Device. Gules, a pale wreathed argent
and azure winged Or.
No evidence has been presented, nor was any found, that ordinaries
can be winged. We could not reblazon this as a vol with a pale
overall, as the wings clearly originate at the edge of the pale.
Tanglwyst de Holloway. Badge for Catriona Moriarty. Sable, a mullet of
six points and a bordure argent.
There are several conflicts, including Anna Tuomaantyt{a:}r von
Urwald, Sable, a mullet and a base wavy argent, and the badge for
Jayme O'Darcy of Glen Laurie, Sable, on a mullet throughout argent
a cat's paw print sable, within a bordure argent. Against Anna,
there is a CD for changing the base to a bordure, but nothing for
the difference between a mullet of six points and a mullet of five
points. Against Jayme, there is a CD for removing the tertiary
charge, but again no difference between a mullet of five points to
a mullet of six points nor between a mullet and a mullet
throughout.
[It's not exceptional: mullet conflicts come up frequently. I
eventually got tired of asking "do these two conflict?" and drew
up a table of known conflicts and CDs for mullet-like things.]
Wolfram von N{u:}rnberg. Device. Or semy of wolf's paw prints, a wolf
rampant azure sustaining a staff topped with a cross formy sable.
The wolf's paw prints are so small as to be unrecognizable.
Therefore, we are returning this for a redraw.
[Unrecognizability is sometimes cause for return.]
ATENVELDT
Lachlan McBean of Kinchyle. Name.
Kinchyle appears to be the clan seat of the MacBean, so the two
names cannot be combined in this manner. As he does not allow us
to drop elements of the name we have to return it. Also, the
documentation for the name was not adequately summarised on the
LoI, and we would have returned it for that reason as well.
His badge has been registered under the holding name Lachlan
McBean.
[You can't be "<clan surname> of <seat of that clan>". It's a
long-standing precedent. You CAN be "<clan surname>" of a place
that was associated with that clan but which wasn't a seat --
Alexander Mackintosh of Islay, frex.]
Sebastiana Gerynot Fanelli. Device. Per pale gules and purpure, on a
pale Or between two rapiers inverted proper, a jester 's bauble
proper, staffed bendy sinister argent and alternately gules and
purpure, and hooded alternately purpure and gules.
While the reasons for the previous return have been dealt with,
this submission creates a new one. No evidence has been presented
for the coloration of the staff. Treatments of the field were not
necessarily used as treatments for charges, and therefore are not
sufficient documentation to register this treatment of the staff.
[Necessity may be the mother of invention, but invention is often
the father of return.]
ATLANTIA
Andela Romier. Badge. (Fieldless) A mouse sejant ululant to sinister
argent.
While we allow wolves and foxes to be ululant, the head posture is
an SCA invention. It is possible that had the head posture been
introduced today we would not allow it. Allowing ululant wolves
is a step beyond period practice; allowing anything but canines to
use the position is two steps beyond period practice and therefore
grounds for return.
Cormac an Faoldubh. Device. Quarterly Or and azure, a cross
counterchanged between in bend a wolf's head erased and a fret sable.
By RfS XI.3, Marshalling, fields divided quarterly can only be
displayed in a limited number of forms without creating the
appearance of marshalling. This does not qualify, because there
is more than one type of charge on the field in addition to the
cross. As crosses were used in period as overall charges on
marshalled coats of arms, adding it does not remove the appearance
of marshalling.
[A precedent that's moderately old.]
Derdriu ingen Muiredaig. Name.
This is in aural conflict with Derdriu ingen Mhurchadha,
registered in May 2000.
[Name conflict calls are quite rare.]
Juliana la Caminante de Navarra. Badge. Sable, a Lacy knot Or
conjoined at the tips to eight lily flowers argent.
The lily flowers are unidentifiable when used at the ends of the
knots; they could be easily misidentified as tassels which were
used at the ends of knots. Therefore the badge is in conflict with
Lacy (important real-world badge), A Lacy knot, with only a single
CD for fieldlessness.
[Invention strikes again.]
Kisaiya Zingara. Badge. (Fieldless) A sword inverted argent, entwined
overall by a rose purpure, slipped and leaved vert.
As drawn, the rose is barely overall. This kind of overall charge
has been disallowed for some time. If drawn with a standard
entwined rose, it is in conflict with Barbara Fitzhugh de
Brandhard, Azure, a sword inverted proper entwined widdershins of
a poppy proper. Traditionally, entwined charges are treated like
maintained charges unless both charges have equal visual
weight. Therefore there is not a CD for the change to the flower.
[I wasn't sure about the treatment of entwined charges.
This *is* consistent with other maintained/sustained charges.
Invention again.]
Leonidas Mantineios. Device. Checky azure and argent, on a plate a
dolphin naiant embowed sable.
The large emblazon had colored the dolphin so that one of the fins
and most of the face were argent. As a result the dolphin has
insufficient contrast with the argent roundel. In addition,
please instruct the submitter to draw the head of the dolphin in a
more heraldic manner.
Muirgheal inghean u{i'} {O'}ga{i'}n. Device. Sable, a seadragon and in
chief three annulets Or.
Conflict with the badge for Ulric Grimmheld, reblazoned elsewhere
in this letter, Sable, a dragon segreant guardant maintaining a
sledge-hammer Or. Because a seadragon is almost identical in shape
to a wyvern, which is an artistic variant of a dragon, there is
not a CD between a dragon and a seadragon, and an examination of
Ulric's device showed that the hammer was maintained. Thus there
is only a single CD for adding the annulets.
...
Oriana of Xylina. Badge. Or, a lizard rampant sable, collared and
chained argent, a bordure sable.
The primary charge was not identifiable as a lizard. The neck of
the creature was too long, and the hind legs of the creature are
significantly larger than the forelegs. Both of these details
were enough to question if the charge was actually a dinosaur, a
creature unknown to period Europeans.
Timothy de Tindall. Device. Or, a bend sinister azure, overall a
griffin sejant guardant maintaining in its dexter forepaw an eye
sable irised Or.
As drawn the overall charge is unidentifiable. This combination
of the guardant head and the badly drawn ears makes the type of
head difficult to recognize, while placing the wings on the low
contrast bend sinister further blurs the identifiability.
Ulric the Fox. Device. Per pale and chauss{e'} argent and sable, a
fox's mask counterchanged.
Conflict with the badge for Arinbjorn R{u'}n{o'}lfsson Rafnssonar,
A wolf's head cabossed per pale sable and argent enflamed gules.
An examination of the emblazon shows that the enflaming of
Arinbjorn's head is not worth a CD. Therefore, there is only one
CD for adding the field.
Yevane Jameson. Device. Per pall inverted azure, vert and Or.
Conflict with Rivika Vladimirovna Rivkina, Per pall sable, vert,
and Or.There is a CD for changing the line of division from per
pall to per pall inverted, but nothing for changing the tincture
of one third of the field.
[Field-primary armory conflict rules has some blank spots. This
fills one.]
DRACHENWALD
None!
LOCHAC
None!
MERIDIES
Pol MacNeill. Badge. Or, a gurges purpure within a belt sable.
Armory using a charge within a belt strap is restricted as such
motifs were used as a standard form of badge display in Scottish
armory. "There is a precedent going back some eight years banning
the use of the 'Badge within a strap' since this is a standard
form of display for Scottish badges: the chief uses the plain
badge and the clansmen use the badge within a strap. Therefore, we
have on several occasions returned or pended submissions to allow
them to be considered without the strap. In this case, dropping
the strap would not be adequate to resolve this problem since
conflicts then arise." (January 1990 LoAR, p. 20)
MIDDLE
None!
NEBULY
Antwerp, City of. Device. Gules, a walled city and in chief a pair of
hands in chevron inverted argent.
This was ruled not important enough to protect in June, 1995 with
the following comments: "Though the city itself is important in
later period, and its arms relate to the legend of how the city
received its name, the arms do not otherwise appear to be of
sufficient importance for us to protect them." No additional
evidence was presented to lead us to change that decision.
Antwerp, Margraviate of. Device. Per fess Or and gules, in chief a
double-headed eagle displayed sable and in base a walled city beneath
a pair of hands in chevron inverted argent.
No evidence was given that the Margraviate of Antwerp was an
independent entity, nor that it is otherwise important enough or
familiar enough to protect. See the Cover Letter for more
details.
[and lots more similar ones, some with more arguments]
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