[ANSTHRLD] Re: Stars
tmcd at jump.net
Sat Mar 9 17:24:30 PST 2002
On Sat, 9 Mar 2002, Bob Dewart <gilli at seacove.net> wrote:
> that we can only use things as they were connected in period. But
> wouldn't that require that the same words be used together which
> means we can only use those words and combinations as they were
> actually used.
I quote the Rules for Submission in large chunks below.
Basically, you have to show that the name, and each word in the name,
is compatible with period naming practices. That could mean either
using documented words or phrases, or making a reasoned extrapolation
from known patterns.
For instance, the standard male patronymic in Old Norse consists
of the possessive form of the father's name joined to the word
"son", like "Sveinsson" is the son of Svein. The documented Old
Norse given name "Bjartmarr" could be used in this construction to
form "Bjartmarsson", even if this particular patronymic was not
found in period sources.
Similarly, German towns on rivers regularly use the name of the
river with the word "brueck", like "Innsbrueck", to indicate the
town had a bridge over that river. A new branch could use the
documented German name of the river "Donau" to construct the name
There is a pattern of using kinds of animals in the English place
names "Oxford", "Swinford" and "Hartford", and so a case could be
made for inventing a similar name like "Sheepford".
You have to be careful in that extrapolation. For example, in the
first case, it's only [a man's given name (in the genitive case)] +
"son". That doesn't extend to the father's nickname + "son", or a
mother's name + "son". To register one of those, you'd have to show
a few examples of *those* patterns (e.g., for the last, Svein
Estrithsson -- he was a king of Denmark, though; maybe he was an
For another extrapolation, consider the fords. With Oxford and
Swinford, I thought the pattern was "large four-legged domestic animal
+ 'ford'". But harts (deer) aren't domesticated: the pattern appears
to be "large four-legged mammal + 'ford'". Sheepford would indeed
fit. Horseford. Cowford. But Slugford? Swallowford? I think not
-- it doesn't fit the three names we're given (and additionally, they
can't ford anything). You'd need more evidence to justify those.
> But no, that would mean we'd be required to only use those award
> names that were used. But no, since we can't duplicate a real
Actually, we can. There are famous orders (Order of the Elephant,
Order of the Garter, Order of the Star), but an obscure one that
doesn't ring bells in anyone's mind or doesn't have its own entry in
the Encyclopedia Britannica or the like would pass.
> Seems to me that most of them had one or more adjectives and a noun
> and perhaps a location name after it.
There's been some recent starts at research into period order names,
and they were a lot more limited than you'd (or I'd) think.
Unfortunately, I don't have the article to hand ... wait, actually, I
do (Kwellend-Njal's from last Known World Heraldic Symposium).
Out of 219 possible period order names he listed, only 17 had a
regular adjective ... and in 10 cases, that adjective was "Golden"; in
3 cases, it was a number; the others were 'blue', 'white', 'yellow',
or 'black'. There are a few examples of participles (I think), but
it's not clear that "the Defeated Dragon" was a period name, and other
ones are like "Looking Glass of the Blessed Virgin".
The prototypical order name: the Order of [saint, Mary, Jesus, Holy
Ghost, or other religious person].
More research is indicated. There are known problems with the data he
presented, because lots of orders claim a backdated start date (the
Thistle, in Scotland, most notably -- that one's period, but it sure
as hell wasn't founded in A.D. 787).
II. Every word in a Society name must be compatible with period naming
1. Documented Names ...
2. Constructed Names - Documented names and words may be used
to form place names, patronymics, epithets, and other names
in a period manner.
Constructed forms must follow the rules for formation of the
appropriate category of name element in the language from
which the documented components are drawn. For instance,
the standard male patronymic in Old Norse consists of the
possessive form of the father's name joined to the word
"son", like "Sveinsson" is the son of Svein. The documented
Old Norse given name "Bjartmarr" could be used in this
construction to form "Bjartmarsson", even if this particular
patronymic was not found in period sources. Similarly,
German towns on rivers regularly use the name of the river
with the word "brueck", like "Innsbrueck", to indicate the
town had a bridge over that river. A new branch could use
the documented German name of the river "Donau" to construct
the name "Donaubrueck".
3. Invented Names - New name elements, whether invented by the
submitter or borrowed from a literary source, may be used if
they follow the rules for name formation from a linguistic
tradition compatible with the domain of the Society and the
name elements used.
Name elements may be created following patterns demonstrated
to have been followed in period naming. Old English given
names, for instance, are frequently composed of two syllables
from a specific pool of name elements. The given name
"AElfmund" could be created using syllables from the
documented names "AElfgar" and "Eadmund" following the pattern
established by similar names in Old English. Other kinds of
patterns can also be found in period naming, such as patterns
of meaning, description, or sound. Such patterns, if
sufficiently defined, may also be used to invent new name
elements. There is a pattern of using kinds of animals in the
English place names "Oxford", "Swinford" and "Hartford", and
so a case could be made for inventing a similar name like
"Sheepford". No name will be disqualified based solely on its
a. Invented name elements may not consist of randomly
arranged sounds or characters. ...
b. Invented given names may not be identical to any other
word unless a strong pattern of use of a class of words as
given names in the same language is documented.
[Examples: China, Random, Starhawk]
III. All elements of a name must be correctly arranged to follow the
grammar and linguistic traditions of period names ...
1. Name Grammar and Syntax - All names must be grammatically
correct for period names and follow documented patterns....
2. Name Style - Every name as a whole should be compatible with
the culture of a single time and place. ...
b. Non-Personal Names - Branch names, names of orders and
awards, heraldic titles, and household names must consist
of a designator that identifies the type of entity and at
least one descriptive element. ...
ii. Names of Orders and Awards - Names of orders and awards
must follow the patterns of the names of period orders
These are often the names of saints; others are similar
to sign names (see RfS III.2.a.iii). Some examples
are: the "Order of Saint Michael", the "Order of Saint
Maurice and Saint Lazarus", the "Brethren of the
Sword", the "Order of the Garter", "La Toison d'Or"
(the "Order of the Golden Fleece"), the "Order of the
Golden Rose", the "Order of the Star", the "Order of
the Swan", "La Orden de la Jara" (the "Knights of the
Tankard"), the "Order of Lilies".
Daniel de Lincolia
Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net;
if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com.
"To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting every-
thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka Korpela)
More information about the Heralds