[ANSTHRLD] Re: Stars

Bob Dewart gilli at seacove.net
Sat Mar 9 17:54:27 PST 2002


WOW!!  Thanks for all the up dating.

But it seems that the Order of the Golden Fleece would, at least somewhat,
open the door to a wider area for research since it's a mythology thing.

Gilli
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim McDaniel" <tmcd at jump.net>
To: <heralds at ansteorra.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 7:24 PM
Subject: [ANSTHRLD] Re: Stars


> On Sat, 9 Mar 2002, Bob Dewart <gilli at seacove.net> wrote:
> > that we can only use things as they were connected in period. But
> > wouldn't that require that the same words be used together which
> > means we can only use those words and combinations as they were
> > actually used.
>
> I quote the Rules for Submission in large chunks below.
>
> Basically, you have to show that the name, and each word in the name,
> is compatible with period naming practices.  That could mean either
> using documented words or phrases, or making a reasoned extrapolation
> from known patterns.
>
> Some examples:
>
>     For instance, the standard male patronymic in Old Norse consists
>     of the possessive form of the father's name joined to the word
>     "son", like "Sveinsson" is the son of Svein.  The documented Old
>     Norse given name "Bjartmarr" could be used in this construction to
>     form "Bjartmarsson", even if this particular patronymic was not
>     found in period sources.
>
>     Similarly, German towns on rivers regularly use the name of the
>     river with the word "brueck", like "Innsbrueck", to indicate the
>     town had a bridge over that river.  A new branch could use the
>     documented German name of the river "Donau" to construct the name
>     "Donaubrueck".
>
>     There is a pattern of using kinds of animals in the English place
>     names "Oxford", "Swinford" and "Hartford", and so a case could be
>     made for inventing a similar name like "Sheepford".
>
> You have to be careful in that extrapolation.  For example, in the
> first case, it's only [a man's given name (in the genitive case)] +
> "son".  That doesn't extend to the father's nickname + "son", or a
> mother's name + "son".  To register one of those, you'd have to show
> a few examples of *those* patterns (e.g., for the last, Svein
> Estrithsson -- he was a king of Denmark, though; maybe he was an
> exceptional case?).
>
> For another extrapolation, consider the fords.  With Oxford and
> Swinford, I thought the pattern was "large four-legged domestic animal
> + 'ford'".  But harts (deer) aren't domesticated: the pattern appears
> to be "large four-legged mammal + 'ford'".  Sheepford would indeed
> fit.  Horseford.  Cowford.  But Slugford?  Swallowford?  I think not
> -- it doesn't fit the three names we're given (and additionally, they
> can't ford anything).  You'd need more evidence to justify those.
>
> > But no, that would mean we'd be required to only use those award
> > names that were used.  But no, since we can't duplicate a real
> > award.
>
> Actually, we can.  There are famous orders (Order of the Elephant,
> Order of the Garter, Order of the Star), but an obscure one that
> doesn't ring bells in anyone's mind or doesn't have its own entry in
> the Encyclopedia Britannica or the like would pass.
>
> > Seems to me that most of them had one or more adjectives and a noun
> > and perhaps a location name after it.
>
> There's been some recent starts at research into period order names,
> and they were a lot more limited than you'd (or I'd) think.
> Unfortunately, I don't have the article to hand ... wait, actually, I
> do (Kwellend-Njal's from last Known World Heraldic Symposium).
>
> Out of 219 possible period order names he listed, only 17 had a
> regular adjective ... and in 10 cases, that adjective was "Golden"; in
> 3 cases, it was a number; the others were 'blue', 'white', 'yellow',
> or 'black'.  There are a few examples of participles (I think), but
> it's not clear that "the Defeated Dragon" was a period name, and other
> ones are like "Looking Glass of the Blessed Virgin".
>
> The prototypical order name: the Order of [saint, Mary, Jesus, Holy
> Ghost, or other religious person].
>
> More research is indicated.  There are known problems with the data he
> presented, because lots of orders claim a backdated start date (the
> Thistle, in Scotland, most notably -- that one's period, but it sure
> as hell wasn't founded in A.D. 787).
>
>
> %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>
> II.  Every word in a Society name must be compatible with period naming
>      practices ...
>
>      1.   Documented Names ...
>
>      2.   Constructed Names  - Documented names and words may be used
>           to form place names, patronymics, epithets, and other names
>           in a period manner.
>
>           Constructed forms must follow the rules for formation of the
>           appropriate category of name element in the language from
>           which the documented components are drawn.  For instance,
>           the standard male patronymic in Old Norse consists of the
>           possessive form of the father's name joined to the word
>           "son", like "Sveinsson" is the son of Svein.  The documented
>           Old Norse given name "Bjartmarr" could be used in this
>           construction to form "Bjartmarsson", even if this particular
>           patronymic was not found in period sources.  Similarly,
>           German towns on rivers regularly use the name of the river
>           with the word "brueck", like "Innsbrueck", to indicate the
>           town had a bridge over that river.  A new branch could use
>           the documented German name of the river "Donau" to construct
>           the name "Donaubrueck".
>
>     3.  Invented Names - New name elements, whether invented by the
>         submitter or borrowed from a literary source, may be used if
>         they follow the rules for name formation from a linguistic
>         tradition compatible with the domain of the Society and the
>         name elements used.
>
>         Name elements may be created following patterns demonstrated
>         to have been followed in period naming.  Old English given
>         names, for instance, are frequently composed of two syllables
>         from a specific pool of name elements.  The given name
>         "AElfmund" could be created using syllables from the
>         documented names "AElfgar" and "Eadmund" following the pattern
>         established by similar names in Old English.  Other kinds of
>         patterns can also be found in period naming, such as patterns
>         of meaning, description, or sound.  Such patterns, if
>         sufficiently defined, may also be used to invent new name
>         elements.  There is a pattern of using kinds of animals in the
>         English place names "Oxford", "Swinford" and "Hartford", and
>         so a case could be made for inventing a similar name like
>         "Sheepford".  No name will be disqualified based solely on its
>         source.
>
>         a.  Invented name elements may not consist of randomly
>             arranged sounds or characters. ...
>         b.  Invented given names may not be identical to any other
>             word unless a strong pattern of use of a class of words as
>             given names in the same language is documented.
>             [Examples: China, Random, Starhawk]
>
> III. All elements of a name must be correctly arranged to follow the
>      grammar and linguistic traditions of period names ...
>
>     1.  Name Grammar and Syntax - All names must be grammatically
>         correct for period names and follow documented patterns....
>     2.  Name Style  - Every name as a whole should be compatible with
>         the culture of a single time and place. ...
>         b. Non-Personal Names - Branch names, names of orders and
>            awards, heraldic titles, and household names must consist
>            of a designator that identifies the type of entity and at
>            least one descriptive element. ...
>
>            ii. Names of Orders and Awards - Names of orders and awards
>                must follow the patterns of the names of period orders
>                and awards.
>
>                These are often the names of saints; others are similar
>                to sign names (see RfS III.2.a.iii).  Some examples
>                are: the "Order of Saint Michael", the "Order of Saint
>                Maurice and Saint Lazarus", the "Brethren of the
>                Sword", the "Order of the Garter", "La Toison d'Or"
>                (the "Order of the Golden Fleece"), the "Order of the
>                Golden Rose", the "Order of the Star", the "Order of
>                the Swan", "La Orden de la Jara" (the "Knights of the
>                Tankard"), the "Order of Lilies".
>
> Daniel de Lincolia
> --
> Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net;
> if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com.
>  "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting
every-
>  thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka
Korpela)
>
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