[ANSTHRLD] Re: Stars
gilli at seacove.net
Sat Mar 9 17:54:27 PST 2002
WOW!! Thanks for all the up dating.
But it seems that the Order of the Golden Fleece would, at least somewhat,
open the door to a wider area for research since it's a mythology thing.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim McDaniel" <tmcd at jump.net>
To: <heralds at ansteorra.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 7:24 PM
Subject: [ANSTHRLD] Re: Stars
> On Sat, 9 Mar 2002, Bob Dewart <gilli at seacove.net> wrote:
> > that we can only use things as they were connected in period. But
> > wouldn't that require that the same words be used together which
> > means we can only use those words and combinations as they were
> > actually used.
> I quote the Rules for Submission in large chunks below.
> Basically, you have to show that the name, and each word in the name,
> is compatible with period naming practices. That could mean either
> using documented words or phrases, or making a reasoned extrapolation
> from known patterns.
> Some examples:
> For instance, the standard male patronymic in Old Norse consists
> of the possessive form of the father's name joined to the word
> "son", like "Sveinsson" is the son of Svein. The documented Old
> Norse given name "Bjartmarr" could be used in this construction to
> form "Bjartmarsson", even if this particular patronymic was not
> found in period sources.
> Similarly, German towns on rivers regularly use the name of the
> river with the word "brueck", like "Innsbrueck", to indicate the
> town had a bridge over that river. A new branch could use the
> documented German name of the river "Donau" to construct the name
> There is a pattern of using kinds of animals in the English place
> names "Oxford", "Swinford" and "Hartford", and so a case could be
> made for inventing a similar name like "Sheepford".
> You have to be careful in that extrapolation. For example, in the
> first case, it's only [a man's given name (in the genitive case)] +
> "son". That doesn't extend to the father's nickname + "son", or a
> mother's name + "son". To register one of those, you'd have to show
> a few examples of *those* patterns (e.g., for the last, Svein
> Estrithsson -- he was a king of Denmark, though; maybe he was an
> exceptional case?).
> For another extrapolation, consider the fords. With Oxford and
> Swinford, I thought the pattern was "large four-legged domestic animal
> + 'ford'". But harts (deer) aren't domesticated: the pattern appears
> to be "large four-legged mammal + 'ford'". Sheepford would indeed
> fit. Horseford. Cowford. But Slugford? Swallowford? I think not
> -- it doesn't fit the three names we're given (and additionally, they
> can't ford anything). You'd need more evidence to justify those.
> > But no, that would mean we'd be required to only use those award
> > names that were used. But no, since we can't duplicate a real
> > award.
> Actually, we can. There are famous orders (Order of the Elephant,
> Order of the Garter, Order of the Star), but an obscure one that
> doesn't ring bells in anyone's mind or doesn't have its own entry in
> the Encyclopedia Britannica or the like would pass.
> > Seems to me that most of them had one or more adjectives and a noun
> > and perhaps a location name after it.
> There's been some recent starts at research into period order names,
> and they were a lot more limited than you'd (or I'd) think.
> Unfortunately, I don't have the article to hand ... wait, actually, I
> do (Kwellend-Njal's from last Known World Heraldic Symposium).
> Out of 219 possible period order names he listed, only 17 had a
> regular adjective ... and in 10 cases, that adjective was "Golden"; in
> 3 cases, it was a number; the others were 'blue', 'white', 'yellow',
> or 'black'. There are a few examples of participles (I think), but
> it's not clear that "the Defeated Dragon" was a period name, and other
> ones are like "Looking Glass of the Blessed Virgin".
> The prototypical order name: the Order of [saint, Mary, Jesus, Holy
> Ghost, or other religious person].
> More research is indicated. There are known problems with the data he
> presented, because lots of orders claim a backdated start date (the
> Thistle, in Scotland, most notably -- that one's period, but it sure
> as hell wasn't founded in A.D. 787).
> II. Every word in a Society name must be compatible with period naming
> practices ...
> 1. Documented Names ...
> 2. Constructed Names - Documented names and words may be used
> to form place names, patronymics, epithets, and other names
> in a period manner.
> Constructed forms must follow the rules for formation of the
> appropriate category of name element in the language from
> which the documented components are drawn. For instance,
> the standard male patronymic in Old Norse consists of the
> possessive form of the father's name joined to the word
> "son", like "Sveinsson" is the son of Svein. The documented
> Old Norse given name "Bjartmarr" could be used in this
> construction to form "Bjartmarsson", even if this particular
> patronymic was not found in period sources. Similarly,
> German towns on rivers regularly use the name of the river
> with the word "brueck", like "Innsbrueck", to indicate the
> town had a bridge over that river. A new branch could use
> the documented German name of the river "Donau" to construct
> the name "Donaubrueck".
> 3. Invented Names - New name elements, whether invented by the
> submitter or borrowed from a literary source, may be used if
> they follow the rules for name formation from a linguistic
> tradition compatible with the domain of the Society and the
> name elements used.
> Name elements may be created following patterns demonstrated
> to have been followed in period naming. Old English given
> names, for instance, are frequently composed of two syllables
> from a specific pool of name elements. The given name
> "AElfmund" could be created using syllables from the
> documented names "AElfgar" and "Eadmund" following the pattern
> established by similar names in Old English. Other kinds of
> patterns can also be found in period naming, such as patterns
> of meaning, description, or sound. Such patterns, if
> sufficiently defined, may also be used to invent new name
> elements. There is a pattern of using kinds of animals in the
> English place names "Oxford", "Swinford" and "Hartford", and
> so a case could be made for inventing a similar name like
> "Sheepford". No name will be disqualified based solely on its
> a. Invented name elements may not consist of randomly
> arranged sounds or characters. ...
> b. Invented given names may not be identical to any other
> word unless a strong pattern of use of a class of words as
> given names in the same language is documented.
> [Examples: China, Random, Starhawk]
> III. All elements of a name must be correctly arranged to follow the
> grammar and linguistic traditions of period names ...
> 1. Name Grammar and Syntax - All names must be grammatically
> correct for period names and follow documented patterns....
> 2. Name Style - Every name as a whole should be compatible with
> the culture of a single time and place. ...
> b. Non-Personal Names - Branch names, names of orders and
> awards, heraldic titles, and household names must consist
> of a designator that identifies the type of entity and at
> least one descriptive element. ...
> ii. Names of Orders and Awards - Names of orders and awards
> must follow the patterns of the names of period orders
> and awards.
> These are often the names of saints; others are similar
> to sign names (see RfS III.2.a.iii). Some examples
> are: the "Order of Saint Michael", the "Order of Saint
> Maurice and Saint Lazarus", the "Brethren of the
> Sword", the "Order of the Garter", "La Toison d'Or"
> (the "Order of the Golden Fleece"), the "Order of the
> Golden Rose", the "Order of the Star", the "Order of
> the Swan", "La Orden de la Jara" (the "Knights of the
> Tankard"), the "Order of Lilies".
> Daniel de Lincolia
> Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at jump.net;
> if that fail, my work address is tmcd at us.ibm.com.
> "To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting
> thing up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka.Korpela at hut.fi (Jukka
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