[ANSTHRLD] requesting conflict check

[tmcd at panix.com]

When you're going to discuss the details of an armorial design, please
keep the blazon in.  I've deleted the message long since.  I gather
that the original is
    Quarterly ermine and azure, in bend two crosses something gules.
or with the quarters reversed.

"Haines, Paul" <PHA at allseas.com> wrote:
> RfS XI.3.a says, "Such fields may be used with identical charges
> over the entire field, or with complex lines of partition or charges
> overall that were not used for marshalling in period heraldry.
>
> Technically, we are clear of this, as our charges are identical, are
> over the entire field (though they are positioned within two
> quarters), and are not charges used for marshalling.

You are, I'm afraid, completely misunderstanding it.  "Over the entire
field" means exactly that: that there are identical charge(s) within
every division of the field, as in
    Quarterly ermine and azure, four crosses something counterchanged.
That does not obtain in this case: over half the field is uncharged.
Neither are their complex lines of partition that avoid marshalling,
as in
    Quarterly embattled ermine and azure, anything you want.
and neither are their charges over the entire field of any sort (much
less charges that weren't used in marshalling), as in
    Quarterly ermine and azure, a bend gules between anything you want.
so the "or" clause doesn't apply either.

And if this clause did apply, you'd be done -- it's giving conditions
that can instantly remove appearance of marshalling.

> RfS XI.3.b says,
> "Such fields may only be used when no single portion of the field
> may appear to be an independant piece of armory. (indented) No
> section of the field may contain an ordinary that terminates at the
> edge of that section, or more than one charge unless those charges
> are part of a group over the whole field.  Charged sections must all
> contain charges of the same type to avoid the appearance of being
> different from eachoher."
>
> In this case, we have no ordinaries on any quarter.  And we do not
> have more than one charge positioned in any quarter.

Yes, and that's almost everything you need to clear it.  The only
other problem is whether "Azure" is deemed an independant piece of
armory.  It's true, as has been stated, that it could not be
registered.  But there's a recent precedent (August, Aeth. returns).

    Murdoch Bayne. Badge. Per pale ermine and vert, in sinister a lion's
    head cabossed Or.

        Many commenters mentioned that this appeared to be the impalement
        of the arms of Brittany (Ermine) and the armory Vert, a lion's
        head cabossed Or. RfS XI.3 states: "Armory that appears to
        marshall independent arms is considered presumptuous.... Divisions
        commonly used for marshalling, such as quarterly or per pale, may
        only be used in contexts that ensure marshalling is not
        suggested." The rule continues, in RfS XI.3.b, to state that "Such
        fields may only be used when no single portion of the field may
        appear to be an independent piece of armory.... Charged sections
        must all contain charges of the same type to avoid the appearance
        of being different from each other".

        RfS XI.3.b was later refined by Laurel ruling, indicating that
        even when "charged sections ... all contain charges of the same
        type" there may be an appearance of marshalling if the uncharged
        quarters are complex fields. See the return of Quarterly Or and
        lozengy azure and Or, in bend two ravens contourny sable (LoAR of
        October 1992, Aric Thomas Percy Raven):

            After much soul-searching, I must agree with the commenters
            who saw an appearance of marshalling in the device. Rule
            XI.3.b states that quarterly may be used only "when no single
            portion of the field [appears] to be an independent piece of
            armory." In general, complexity in any of the quarters makes
            it look like independent armory; for example, XI.3.b
            explicitly cites the use of multiple charges in a quarter as
            unacceptable. The motif Quarterly X and Y, in bend two
            [charges] is allowable when the uncharged quarters are plain
            tinctures; we don't protect plain tinctures. But when the
            uncharged quarters are complex fields, we lose that rationale;
            and the complexity then begins to make it look like an
            independent coat. This, beneath all the subtext, is exactly
            what XI.3.b is meant to prevent.

        After similar soul-searching, and considering the strong reactions
        of the College to this submission, we rule as follows:
        When considering armory using a field division commonly used for
        marshalling, if every uncharged portion of the field is a plain
        tincture that the SCA protects as "important non-SCA arms", then
        those uncharged portions of the field will appear to be displays
        of independent coats of arms, and the armory will appear to be
        marshalling.

        Quarterly azure and ermine, in bend two mullets Or has the
        appearance of marshalling Azure, a mullet Or with Ermine, the
        protected "important non-SCA arms" of Brittany. In this case,
        every uncharged portion of the field appears to be a display of
        the arms of Brittany. Quarterly azure and ermine, in dexter chief
        a mullet Or does not have the appearance of marshalling, because
        not every uncharged portion of the field appears to be a display
        of arms. This armory includes an uncharged quarter of azure, which
        is not protected in the SCA as "important non-SCA arms." This
        armory simply appears to be arms using a quarterly field with a
        single charge in dexter chief.

        Quarterly azure and vert, in bend two mullets Or does not have the
        appearance of marshalling. The flag of Libya, Vert, is a plain
        tincture protected as an "important non-SCA flag". Only arms would
        be used in marshalling in the real world, not flags or
        badges. There is only an appearance of marshalling when the
        protected plain tincture represents "important non-SCA arms".

So if it were
    Quarterly ermine and azure, in bend sinister two crosses something
    Or.
Michael would be sunk (again): it looks like quartering Brittany with
"Azure, a cross something Or".  However, Michael (as I recall) is
charging only the ermine sections, so he's OK.  The only non-SCA
plain-field armory is Brittany, so you only have to worry about
"Ermine".

Danielis Lincolia
--
Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com; tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work address