[ANSTHRLD] conflict check - two goblets, bodure

tmcd@panix.com tmcd at panix.com
Thu Jul 10 08:40:32 PDT 2003

lymadelina at earthlink.net wrote:
> Good question, I never thought to describe that aspect.  They are
> like your second representation, as if holding one in each hand
> parallel to the ground

"In fess", then.  I should have mentioned the general principle: if
you have multiple charges on the field or on another charge, you
should describe their relative placement and orientations.  (Depending
on the number and the charges, there may be default positions and
postures so you don't have to state them.  But knowing what you can do
requires research, it's not *wrong* to be more explicit, and if Laurel
wants to remove defaults from your blazon, they can always do so.)

It helps to summarize the full design briefly rather than repeat an
entire message we've already seen verbatim:

> argent, two goblets vert(s?), within a bordure vert, fleury argent
> (Maybe fleury isn't the correct way of putting it.  Semy-de-lis?)
> or in plain English, two green goblets on a white field with a green
> border which has lots of white fleurs-de-lis on it.

    Argent, in fess two goblets within a bordure vert semy-de-lis argent.

Or, just as validly,

    Argent, two goblets in fess within a bordure vert semy-de-lys argent.

More advanced blazon fu that you don't have to know: I prefer to put
"in fess", "in pale", "in saltire", or whatever, towards the nearer
end of the blazon, as in the first example, so that it's utterly clear
what it's referring to.  Otherwise, it might require more work to
figure out.  For example, "within" or a comma is not strictly
necessary.  But looking at

    Argent, two goblets in fess a bordure vert semy-de-lys argent.

it takes a few moments to realize that a bordure cannot be "in fess"
and so "in fess" must refer to the goblets.

"Fleury" would mean that the bordure has little demi-fleurs-de-lis
sticking out of it.  By the way, there are at least three ways to
depict semy of whatever in period art, as I recall, and you may do as
you like:
- As if the charges were printed on wallpaper in a regular pattern.
  That means that many of them will be cut off by the edges.
- Fitting in only whole charges wherever they fit nicely, not letting
  any of them be cut off.
- If there's another charge on there (like "Azure semy-de-lis argent,
  a lion Or") -- that's not applicable in the instant case.  But what
  you can do in that case is let them be cut off by the edge of the
  shield but *not* touch the charge on it (because it would start
  looking like a lion fleury and it would complicate the outline and
  you'd have a hard time figuring out what it is).

Don't use too many fleurs-de-lis there: 12 is quite enough, and 8
would be quite doable.

You could say "vert" right before "within":

    Argent, two goblets in fess vert within a bordure vert semy-de-lys argent.

However, that would mean that "vert" would be mentioned twice in a
row.  That's not needed; if you mention the same tincture N times in a
row, you can remove all but the last one -- because of the
corresponding reading rule: if a tincture is missing for a charge,
find the next tincture mentioned.  That's how 

    Argent, in fess two goblets within a bordure vert semy-de-lys argent.

works as a blazon.  You look for the tincture of the goblets, it's not
there, you scan forward, and find "vert" after "bordure".

If I may make period style notes, in case you're interested: green was
used in period, but it was relatively uncommon.  Adding a bordure to
something is quite typical SCA, not that common in period.  Having two
charges (other than long and skinny ones "in pile") was not common in
period -- more common to have one or three, or perhaps six.  On the
other hand, semy-de-lis was done substantially more in period than in
the SCA, so that's a very nice touch.  The Pict Dict says that in
period armory, cups were always (as I recall) covered cups (a
hemispherical dome on top).  If you are willing to do that, you'd be
REALLY unique in the SCA and you'd be fitting period style.

HOWEVER, note that these are period style notes only.  The original
design is quite clearly registerable, unless there's a conflict.  I
just mention these in case you want to consider your own opinions on
SCA registerable style versus common period style.

Daniel de Lincolia
Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com; tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work address

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