[ANSTHRLD] Name Conflict?

[tmcd at panix.com]

Teceangl <tierna at agora.rdrop.com> wrote:

(BTW, please keep attributions for quoted text.  If I just quote that
message as it was given, it would come out as
    Teceangl <tierna at agora.rdrop.com> wrote:
    > > I got an email from one of the members of my shire today,
    ...
and someone who doesn't have a clue about levels of quoting would then
whine "But Tec didn't write that!".  Also, having an attribution helps
if someone has deleted the original note and wants to refer to him or
contact him privately.)

> ["Joseph Percer" <jpercer at stx.rr.com> wrote:]
> > I got an email from one of the members of my shire today,
> > informing me that she had asked the Academy of St. Gabriel to look
> > at her name ...
> >
> > The name she wants is: Catriona ingen ui MacLochlainn and the name
> > she's found conflicting is Catriona Heather MacLochlainn.

 From my limited understanding of Gaelic names, if she follows
S. Gabriel's advice her final name won't be that.  "ui MacLochlainn"
== "male descendant of the son of" doesn't make sense to me (though
there are a few Gaelic given names that start with "Mac"; maybe that's
one), and "MacLochlainn" looks like Anglicized writing as opposed to
the Gaelic rest of it.  By the way, "Catriona" is a variant of the
more common spelling "Caitr{i'}ona" and is pronounced roughly
\kah-TCHREE-nah\ (while the usual pronunciation is more like
\kah-tree-OH-nah\).

> > I'm assuming that she would not get a difference under Article 5,
> > Section 1, Part A of the RfS

Technically, it's _Part_ 5, and we usually write RfS V.1.a for that.
It's perfectly clear what you're referring to, though.

> > because while her byname is one of relationship, the other is not.

I don't understand "while her byname is one of relationship, the other
is not".  If "her" refers to your client, she has only one given name,
Catriona, and one byname, "ingen ui MacLochlainn".  The possible
conflict is either
    given:Catriona given:Heather byname-of-relationship:MacLochlainn
or
    given:Catriona byname:Heather byname-of-relationship:MacLochlainn
(If "Heather" is a byname, I'm not sure what type it is -- unmarked
matronymic, hence relationship?)

> > However, I was not sure if this rule can apply to name phrases as
> > a whole, or if it must be applied to each element.

RfS V.1.a talks about "Difference of Name Phrases".  All the examples
are single words or phrases and not a name as a whole.  Looking at the
rule text, "element" is a term used only in discussing-personal names.
For personal names, you have to break it down into "name phrases", and
that's the smallest atom you can process for conflict purposes.

> > I was hoping you could confirm that this name will indeed conflict

RfS V.1.a doesn't say whether two names conflict or not.  That's RfS
V.1.b's job.  To tell whether two names conflict, you have to break
them down into name phrases.  RfS V.1.a just tells you whether name
phrase A is or is not "significantly different" from name phrase B.
RfS V.1.b tells you how to compare two entire names, each composed of
one or more name phrases.

In particular, it's irrelevant whether MacLochlainn and "ingen ui
MacLochlainn" are or are not significantly different.  From RfS V.2.b:

    b.  Conflict of Personal Names - Two personal names conflict
    *unless* at least one of the following conditions is met: ...

    ii.  Number of Name Phrases - A personal name containing at most
    two name phrases does not conflict with any personal name
    containing a different number of name phrases.

    "Thora Arnthorudottir" does not conflict with "Thora in spaka
    Arnthorudottir"; "Pedro Fernandez" does not conflict with "Pedro
    Fernandez Perez".

So as someone else noted (I deleted that note), the fact that one of
them adds "Heather" brings the two entire names clear -- and we call
conflict on or register entire names.

> Your initial intrepretation is right; it applies to the name as a
> whole for purposes of conflict.  Nicely analyzed.

I'm thoroughly confused by your agreement.  RfS V.1.a does not apply
to "the name as a whole"; it is specifically headed "Difference of
Name Phrases".  The names are not in conflict.

Daniel de Lincolia
--
Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com; tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work address