[ANSTHRLD] Rapier Tivar and Broadsword Pendaran
rudin at ev1.net
Tue Aug 10 15:19:02 PDT 2004
Doesn't that thread title look & sound silly? Imagine hearing "Rapier
Tivar" called into court, or "Broadsword Pendaran" called to the field?
But that's what's happening with the archers.
Robin noticed the problem at Lugnasad this weekend, and discussed it with
Serena. We are now bringing it to the College of Heralds for discussion.
One can of worms, freshly opened.
The members of the order we cannot call "Arcus Majoris" have taken to
calling themselves "Arcus Jacques", "Arcus William", etc. "Arcus" is not a
military rank like "Centurion", a title like "Honorable Lord", or even a
word that describes a person. It just means "bow". I have no idea if
anybody has told them that that's inappropriate, and a violation of Corpora.
They would probably like to know that it's illegal before they get used to
it. Otherwise, we're (unintentionally) leading them on.
[Yes, we know that "Centurion" and "Lancer" aren't titles, and that it's
illegal for Ansteorra to make them titles. But they are common English
words used to describe soldiers given specific duties, and the constitutions
don't say that the members of the Orders may use them as an entitlement,
merely that it is recognized tradition to call them so. Even that's pushing
the legal boundaries, but using a title which can't be passed off as a
traditional use of a common English word is clearly illegal, per Corpora.]
So what should we call the members of the Order to be Named Later?
The word for an archer in the Roman army is "Sagittarius", as seen on the
Unfortunately, they can't use "Sagittarius" because it's the registered name
of another kingdom's Order.
According to the Oxford English Dictionary, there is the Latin word
"arcarium", which led to the Old French "archier", which led to the
Anglo-French "archer", which led to the English "archer". But we can't find
any use of "arcarium" directly meaning anything like "archer". "Arcitenens"
means "bow-carrier", but is only used for Apollo or the constellation. We
can't find a word for the officer in charge of the sagittariorum, and
suspect that it would be "decurion", "centurion", or whatever, just as the
captain of a modern artillery unit is just "captain".
The constitution of the Order does not give them this "title", or the right
to any title -- or even the right to have a "traditional usage".
This problem is going to get worse unless the members of the Order are told
that they cannot use "Arcus" as a title. The herald's office needs to act
now. Yes, we'd like to find them something in its place, but we can't wait
until we do.
Second issue: they are still using the Order name "Arcus Majoris", even
though it didn't pass. Do they even know it was returned? "Arcus Majoris"
doesn't following period practice or Latin grammar, and doesn't even mean
what they wanted it to. The correct grammar for the "greater bow" would be
"Arcus Maior" or (in the genitive) "Ordo Arcus Maioris". But "maior" as an
adjective is always used as a contrast -- it would imply some lesser bow.
If they want "great bow", then they should use "Arcus Magnus" or "Ordo Arcus
All this without even getting into the question of how orders in period were
named. Sufficeth to say that this ain't it.
1. Has the Order been officially told that the Order name didn't pass, and
probably can't pass?
2. Has the Order been officially told that the Order has no right to invent
themselves a title?
3. Has the Order been officially told that a grant-level order has no
inherent right to a special title? I know that the White Scarf, Centurion,
& Golden Lance have muddied these waters.
Again, they would probably like to know that it's illegal before they get
used to it. Otherwise, we're (unintentionally) leading them on. Also,
we're not convinced that the onus is on the heralds to find them a suitable
order name. We're certain that the onus *is* on the herald's office to tell
them that they can't use "Arcus" as a title, or "Arcus Majoris" as an order
The next meeting of the Order is scheduled for Namron Protectorate. That's
a long time to wait to deal with a growing problem. (And yes, letting
people think that they have the right to a title when they don't is a
Robin of Gilwell (Jay Rudin), [title returned by Pelican] Herald*
Serena Lascelles (Diane Rudin), Zodiacus Herald
*See? You don't use something if it's been returned.
More information about the Heralds