[ANSTHRLD] Arcus Majoris - Was: Rapier Tivar and Broadsword Pendaran

Etienne de St. Amaranth star at ansteorra.org
Tue Aug 10 15:53:43 PDT 2004

The following is an issue that I have already discussed with the 
Crown.  Before going to the order with the "you cannot use" situation, I 
have been seeking confirmation of the correct Latin translations (and 
genitives) for archer (ie - rather than simply saying "There is a 
problem..." I can open the conversation with "There is a problem and here 
are some options and some things we cannot conflict with...).  Since those 
are provided in your email (thank you both for the research!), I at least 
have something to bring to the table for the order and Crown to 
consider.  Lughnasad would not have been bad timing for my discussions with 
the circle (since I first heard of the request), but you are correct that 
it should not go unremarked any longer.

Concerning the enumerated questions:
At 05:19 PM 8/10/2004, you wrote:
>1. Has the Order been officially told that the Order name didn't pass, and
>probably can't pass?

I know they are aware from previous conversations.  The order name resubmit 
is almost ready to go back into the CoA process.

>2. Has the Order been officially told that the Order has no right to invent
>themselves a title?

For the record, the members of the order consulted with the Crown and knew 
that the order constitution would have to be amended.  (Good points for 
things that needed to be done that most people would miss.)  They did not 
consult with the kingdom herald until after they had talked with the Crown 
and settled on what they wanted. (Bad points and all too common with 
general heraldry and the usual standard operating procedure for awards and 

>3. Has the Order been officially told that a grant-level order has no
>inherent right to a special title?  I know that the White Scarf, Centurion,
>& Golden Lance have muddied these waters.

The order (in communications I received) were aware that such titles in the 
existing Ansteorran orders were traditional and not legal rank titles.  The 
muddied water you mention has led to a desire to emulate what has become a 
repetitive, now almost "traditional" practice in Ansteorra despite period 

>Again, they would probably like to know that it's illegal before they get
>used to it.  Otherwise, we're (unintentionally) leading them on.

If the order members get copies of your email, I hope fervently that they 
catch the last sentence in the quote above.  It is a herald's duty to try 
(in so far as is possible) to NOT allow people to incorrectly apply titles, 
armory, insignia, and other things that can cause confusion as to rank and 
precedence (which indirectly or directly can lead to perceived insults or 
presumptions and can violate the fundamental principals of the SCA as to 
period practice).  Much of the urgent tone in your email, I perceive and 
hope, is directed at not letting people get their hopes up or establish a 
practice that they then have to change after getting comfortable or used to 
it (since such change inevitably leads to unhappiness and hurt feelings).

I was supposed to be at Lughnasad and an item on my agenda was to meet with 
the Crown and request time with the circle about both the order name and 
this "traditional" title.  A food poisoned (or stomach flu infected) two 
year old daughter pre-empted that so I will have to begin the discussion 
with the order (through the DEM for Archery) and Crown in a non 
face-to-face manner which is not what I desired.  As there are members of 
the order (I believe) subscribed to this list, I have no doubt that I will 
be talking to the Crown and DEM Archery by tomorrow night at the 
latest.  And, I am almost positive that word of this missive (in some form) 
will start getting distributed through the order before I can even get to 
start those discussions.

Star Principal Herald

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