[ANSTHRLD] January Gazette ILOI - aka the Russian Gaelic ILOI

[doug bell]

This is a rather large and complex kingdom letter so I am posting a draft of 
commentary to the
list to make sure the information is correct.  If there is anything missing 
that needs to be added
let me know and I will put it to the final draft.

Magnus
Orle herald

1) Afanasiia Ambrosiia Ivasko (Crossrode Keep)
[Name] We can use a patronymic Ivaskova and drop Ambrosiia to fix the 
problem and register Afanasiia Ivaskova.  This is a large change though but 
likely the one Laurel would make.  As submitted, there is one weirdness for 
two Christian given names in Russian.  There is no documentation Ambrosiia 
is a period feminine construction, which is cause for return.  This uses 
three given names in Russian which is a return.
Afanasiia: Russian female given name - Wickenden 3rd ed. under Afanasiia 
page 1 has the feminine of Afanasii. The date of 311 indicates the person 
was a saint.  It derives from saint Athanasia.  This makes it a Christian 
not a native Russian name.
Ambrosiia: Russian female given name - Wickenden 3rd ed. under Ambrosii. 
page 6.  Only the masculine form of the name is documented.  This is a 
Christian name derived from saint Ambrose.  NO feminine form of this name is 
listed in Wickenden.  On page xxi Wickenden points out that Christian names 
are even more gender specific than the native names.  Women were given the 
names of female saints. Saint Ambrose was a man.  When a female form of the 
name exists an example is given.  The lack of any examples indicates this 
name cannot be made into a feminine form.
Ivasko: Russian male given name - Wickenden 3rd ed. page 120 under Ivan 
diminutives Ivasko Skorpan, peasant 1565. This is a man's given name not a 
patronymic.
Related precedents: "Having two given Christian names in a Russian name was 
ruled a weirdness in the June 1997 LoAR. As both Aleksandra and Ekaterina 
are Christian names, this submission has one weirdness and is registerable." 
[Aleksandra Ekaterina Romanova, 08/01, A-An Tir]
"[Tatiana Ariadna Kalisfena Kazimierova] This is being returned for using a 
triple given name in Russian, for which there is no evidence of any usage 
any time in our period. Even double Christian given names in Russian are 
considered a weirdness, since the documentation for them is virtually 
non-existent." (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR January 1999, p. 12)

2) Anastasiia Ivanova Petrashalova (Crossrode Keep)
[Name] This is Anastasiia, daughter of Ivan Petreshalov.
Anastasiia: Russian female given name - Wickenden 3rd ed. under Anastasiia 
page 7 meaning arisen, resurrected."  Feminine of Anastasii.  Anastasiia 
from 1547. This is a Christian given name from a 4th century saint.
Ivanova: Russian female patronymic - Wickenden 3rd ed. under Ioann page 120 
Natal'ia Ivanova zhena Korina 1498 as a female patronymic.
Petrashalova: Russian female patronymic - Wickenden 3rd ed. under Petreshal 
page 266 gives Gridia Molva Petreshalov serf 1491.  An a is added to the end 
to make the genders agree and the spelling should be changed to 
Petreshalova.

3) Báethán Mac Dhuibh (Tempio)
[Name] Báethán: Gaelic given name - Báethán is a pre-1200 form and is given 
as a common name in very early pedigrees.  It isn't in the Irish Annals. In 
Farmer, Oxford Dictionary of Saints page 43 under Bathan there is a saint 
Baithan from 640 in Scotland.  This looks like a very early saint's name in 
Scotland not Ireland.
Mac Dhuibh: Gaelic patronymic - The mac should be lower case.  Keep in mind 
that Black gives modern Gaelic spellings in italics.  The pre-1200 would be  
Duibh as the genitive. Black under Duff gives Dub as the older form of the 
name.  Under MacDuff it gives Gillemichel mac duf from David I reign 
(1124-1153).  Dubh (962-966) is listed as king of Scotland 
www.scotlandroyalty.org/scotland.html.
Báethán mac Duibh should make the names close enough to be registerable.

4) Dante lo Rosso (Bjornsborg)
[Name] Dante: Italian given name and certainly a famous period one.
lo Rosso: Italian descriptive - www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/venice14/ 
Fourteenth Century Venetian Personal Names by Arval Benicoeur and Talan 
Gwynek Table of Surnames gives Rosso - patronymic form the given name Rosso, 
or descriptive from rosso 'red'.
[Device] This orientation isn't blazonable which indicated non-period style. 
  It needs to be redrawn in a blazonable orientation.

5) Dmitrii Rostislavich (Crossrode Keep)
[Name] They need letters of permission to conflict for each of the relatives 
in this letter.  Otherwise one gets registered and the others returned.  
Rfs.VI.3. "Names Claiming Specific Relationships. - Names that unmistakably 
imply identity with or close relationship to a protected person or literary 
character will generally not be registered."
Dmitrii: Russian male given name - Wickenden 3rd ed. page 68 under Dmitrii 
Prince Dmitrii 1262.
Rostislavich: Russian male patronymic - son of Rostislav Wickenden 3rd ed. 
page 299 under Rostislav gives Riurik Rostislavich from 1198.

6) Dmitrii syn Dmitrii Rostislavich (Crossrode Keep)
[Name] This is Dmitrii son of Dmitrii Rostislavich.  They have to enclose a 
letter of permission to conflict.  Otherwise one gets registered and the 
other returned.  Rfs.VI.3. "Names Claiming Specific Relationships. - Names 
that unmistakably imply identity with or close relationship to a protected 
person or literary character will generally not be registered."
Dmitrii: Russian male given name - Wickenden 3rd ed. page 68 under Dmitrii 
Prince Dmitrii 1262.
Syn: syn is son of Wickenden page xxii.
Dmitrii: Russian male patronymic.  This should be Dmitr'ev according to the 
rules of forming patronymics.  Wickenden 3rd ed. page 68 under Dmitrii gives 
Ivan Dmitr'ev syn Velitskii 1594.
Rostislavich: Russian male patronymic - son of Rostislav Wickenden 3rd ed. 
page 299 under Rostislav gives Riurik Rostislavich from 1198.
Dmitrii syn Dmitr'ev Rostislavich would be the final form.

7) Ekaterina Stepanova doch’ Novgaodskaia (Northkeep)
[Name] Ekaterina: Russian female given name. Wickenden 3rd ed. page 80 under 
Ekaterina lists that spelling from 1533.
Stepanova: Russian female patronymic. Wickenden 3rd ed. page 345 under 
Stepan has Nastas'ia Stepanova doch' before 1478.
doch’: Wickenden 3rd ed. page xxiv daughter of.
Novgaodskaia: Russian locative byname.  Wickenden 3rd ed. page 435 gives 
Novgorod founded 862. Novgorodskaia would be the feminine form.
Ekaterina Stepanova doch’ Novgorodskaia would be Ekaterina daughter of 
Stepan who was from Novgorod.
[Device] Blazon as: "Per pale gules and sable, two lions argent."  Please 
note this is not marshalling.  Conflict with Bainard Grey January 2003: "Per 
pale sable and azure, two lions doubly-queued argent."  One CD for the 
field.

8) Ekaterina Stepanova doch’ Novgaodskaia (Northkeep)
[Badge] Clear of Clare Isibeál Séadhachán October 1991): "(Fieldless) A 
billet invected on the long sides gules." One CD for fieldless and one for 
type.

9) Fearghus Cochrane (Seawinds)
[Name] Mixing Gaelic and English is one weirdness [Ian MacHenrik, 10/99 
LoAR].  Both names are found in Scotland during the same time period.

10) Fearghus Cochrane (Seawinds)
[Badge] Conflict with Kay Gwenhwyfar of Locksley January 1973: "Or, centered 
upon a Celtic cross patty gules, a rose barbed and seeded argent." There is 
one CD for the field.  Nothing for the type change of the tertiary from rose 
to wyvern.
This looks to be a return for overall charge on a fieldless badge. 
"[(Fieldless) A cross crosslet argent surmounted by a dragon’s head couped 
gules] The dragon's head is barely overall which would be reason for return 
even if this badge had a field. Furthermore, as the badge is fieldless, it 
violates the current precedent banning overall charges on fieldless badges 
except in designs involving long skinny charges where the overlap is small. 
This has been in effect since the November 1992 LoAR. "[Cuhelyn Cam vap 
Morcant, 07/00, R-Meridies]
This is a return for using a cross throughout on a fieldless badge.  
Rfs.VIII.5. "Fieldless Style. Since there is no field in such a design, it 
may not use charges that rely on the edges of the field to define their 
shape, such as bordures and orles, nor to cut off their ends, such as 
ordinaries or charges throughout."

11) Fiona ní Meara (Loch Ruadh)
[Name] Fiona is SCA compatible name "Fiona was ruled SCA compatible in April 
of 1981 and upheld in the December 1995 cover letter." [Fiona Harpar, 11/01, 
A-Æthelmearc] which is a weirdness.
Meara: This name appears only as a modern spelling variant of Meadhra in 
Woulfe.  It doesn't appear in OCM or the Irish Annals but it might be there 
under an unknown spelling.  We registered it back in the 1980s but I would 
like to see a firm date on the spelling.

13) Henri de Gartier (Seawinds)
[Name] Evidence needs to be presented that Gartier is a place to use the de. 
  Dauzat, Noms de lieux en France, page 551 under Quartier (Le) gives as a 
place name based on medieval agricultural land measure.  That is the closest 
spelling I can find.

14) Illiria inghean mhic Ghiolla Mhaoil (Elfsea)
[Name] Illiria: English female given name.  This is a typo and it should be 
Illaria.
inghean mhic: daughter of the son of April 2002 Cover Letter.
Ghiolla Mhaoil: There aren't that many pages in Withycombe, the book isn't 
about Gaelic names, and since we have no header there is no way of looking 
it up.  It doesn't appear as a name in Ó Corráin, Maguire, Irish Names and 
doesn't show up in the Annals.  Since it means servant of the devotee it 
appears to be nonsense.  This will have to be returned unless more 
documentation is presented.
[Device] Blazon as: "Gules, on a bend between a tree eradicated argent and a 
plate, three crescents palewise gules."

15) Jayme Dominguez del Valle (Seawinds)
[Device] Blazon as: "Vert, two rapiers inverted in saltire, in chief a 
horseshoe inverted argent all within a bordure wavy Or."

16) Jayme Dominguez del Valle (Seawinds)
[Badge] Versus Lora Anne the Silent November 2001: (Fieldless) "On a cross 
crosslet vert, a cross couped Or." There is a CD between a cross crosslet 
and a cross flory [Miryam æt West Seaxe, 02/03, A-Caid]

17) Klaus der Langer (Elfsea)
[Name] The documentation supports either Langer or der Lange.  Bahlow page 
326 under Lange has Tyle der Lange 1356.
[Device] Conflict with Meave de Clare February 2000: "Per pale gules and 
vert, a Maltese cross Or." for House Vermoncourt

18) Lan’n de Wylde (Bjornsborg)
[Name] Lann: Gaelic female given name.  There is no documentation for the 
apostrophe.  Lann dates to 1047.  There is one weirdness for mixing Gaelic 
and Middle English.

19) Muiriath ingen Carthaich (Crossrode Keep)
[Name] Muiriath: This article isn't currently on St. Gabriel.  The men's 
names are there but not the women's names from O'Bryan Corpus Genealogiarum 
Hiberniae.  The Rawlinson Genealogies appears to be the only source for this 
name.  St Gabriel report #1381 "You told us you had found <Luthenn> and 
<Muiriath> on one of our web pages.  We think you have misspelled the first 
name, because our list shows <Lethann>.  Unfortunately, we have found only 
one historical instance of each name, both much earlier than your period.  
Therefore, we can't recommend either name."  I can't be sure if Muiriath is 
a unique name or not.
[Device] Conflict with Lysbeth Poulsdottir November 1980 "Vert, on a chevron 
inverted enhanced argent, a dexter arm reversed embowed, terminating at the 
wrist with a metal hook, proper."  One CD for the tertiary changes.

20) Rivers Run, Canton of (Rivers Run)
[Device] Name registered July 2003.  I don't believe the laurel wreath has  
a proper tincture unless it is vert.  A thistle proper is vert with a 
purpure bloom.

21) Robert Haddock (Rivers Run)
[Name] Robert: Black page 695 under Robertson has William Robertson (fils 
Robert) a Scot going abroad 1371.
Haddock: Reaney & Wilson page 211 under Haddock has John Haddock 1302.  
Black, page 334 under Haddock has Ninane Haddok 1553 as the earliest 
Scottish entry.
[Device] The waves on the bend need to be deeper.  Blazon as: "Per bend vert 
and azure, a bend wavy between a mermaid Or and a claymore bendwise inverted 
argent."

22) Rose of Threemoons (Elfsea)
[Device] Blazon as: "Sable, a chevron rompu argent between three decrescents 
Or."
Versus Pádraig Óconnell October 2000: "Sable, a chevron argent between three 
cat's paw prints Or."  There should be a CD between a chevron and a chevron 
rompu and a CD for type change of secondary.
Maureen O'Seachnasaigh April 1991: "Sable, a chevron rompu between a 
decrescent, an increscent, and a dragon couchant argent.  There is a CD for 
change of tincture of the secondaries.  I think there is a change of type 
for changing the bottom charge from a decrescent to a dragon but these two 
look very close to each other.

23) Stargate, Barony of (Stargate)
[Device] The mullet is grandfathered to the barony.  Barony of Stargate, May 
1981: "Sable, two towers and in chief a mullet of three greater and six 
lesser points argent."
Conflict with Anne of the White Tower December 1971: "Sable, a tower 
argent." One CD for adding the secondary mullet.

24) Svatava Ivanova Petreshalova (Crossrode Keep)
[Name] This Svatava, daughter of Ivan Petreshalov.
Svatava: Russian female given name. Wickenden 3rd ed. page 355 under 
Sviatava gives Svatava from 1030.
Ivanova: Russian female patronymic - Wickenden 3rd ed. under Ioann page 120 
Natal'ia Ivanova zhena Korina 1498 as a female patronymic.
Petrashalova: Russian female patronymic - Wickenden 3rd ed. under Petreshal 
page 266 gives Gridia Molva Petreshalov serf 1491.  An a is added to the end 
to make the genders agree and the spelling should be changed to 
Petreshalova.

25) Tarasii syn Dmitrii Rostislavich (Crossrode Keep)
[Name] This is Tarasii son of Dmitrii Rostislavich.  They have to enclose a 
letter of permission to conflict.  Otherwise one gets registered and the 
other returned.  Rfs.VI.3. "Names Claiming Specific Relationships. - Names 
that unmistakably imply identity with or close relationship to a protected 
person or literary character will generally not be registered."
Tarasii: Russian masculine given name - Wickenden 3rd ed. page 359 under 
Tarasii gives Tarasii Timofeev syn Karamzin 1566.
syn: patronymic son of Wickenden 3rd ed. page xxii.  It is lower case also.
Dmitrii: Russian male patronymic.  This should be Dmitr'ev according to the 
rules of forming patronymics.  Wickenden 3rd ed. page 68 under Dmitrii gives 
Ivan Dmitr'ev syn Velitskii 1594.
Rostislavich: Russian male patronymic - son of Rostislav Wickenden 3rd ed. 
page 299 under Rostislav gives Riurik Rostislavich from 1198.
Tarasii syn Dmitr'ev Rostislavich would be the final form.

26) Upyr’ syn Dmitrii Rostislavich (Crossrode Keep)
[Name] This is Upyr’ son of Dmitrii Rostislavich.  They have to enclose a 
letter of permission to conflict.  Otherwise one gets registered and the 
other returned.  Rfs.VI.3. "Names Claiming Specific Relationships. - Names 
that unmistakably imply identity with or close relationship to a protected 
person or literary character will generally not be registered."
Upyr’: Russian masculine given name.  Wickenden 3rd ed. page 381 under Upir' 
gives it as a variant spelling Upyr'. priest 1047.
syn: patronymic son of Wickenden 3rd ed. page xxii.  It is lower case also.
Dmitrii: Russian male patronymic.  This should be Dmitr'ev according to the 
rules of forming patronymics.  Wickenden 3rd ed. page 68 under Dmitrii gives 
Ivan Dmitr'ev syn Velitskii 1594.
Rostislavich: Russian male patronymic - son of Rostislav Wickenden 3rd ed. 
page 299 under Rostislav gives Riurik Rostislavich from 1198.
Upyr’ syn Dmitr'ev Rostislavich would be the final form.

27) Vladimir syn Dmitrii Rostislavich (Crossrode Keep)
[Name] This is Vladimir son of Dmitrii Rostislavich.  They have to enclose a 
letter of permission to conflict. Otherwise one gets registered and the 
other returned.  Rfs.VI.3. "Names Claiming Specific Relationships. - Names 
that unmistakably imply identity with or close relationship to a protected 
person or literary character will generally not be registered."
Vladimir: Russian masculine given name - Wickenden 3rd ed. page 396 under 
Vladimir has Vladimir Vsevolodovich 1053.
syn: patronymic son of Wickenden 3rd ed. page xxii.  It is lower case also.
Dmitrii: Russian male patronymic.  This should be Dmitr'ev according to the 
rules of forming patronymics.  Wickenden 3rd ed. page 68 under Dmitrii gives 
Ivan Dmitr'ev syn Velitskii 1594.
Rostislavich: Russian male patronymic - son of Rostislav Wickenden 3rd ed. 
page 299 under Rostislav gives Riurik Rostislavich from 1198.
Vladimir syn Dmitr'ev Rostislavich would be the final form.

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