[ANSTHRLD] Heraldic Regalia

[Jon South]

My apologies, evidently I did not make myself clear.

The concept I envision is that you would have a chain composed of 
individual small plaques joined by links. This chain would have the 
badge of office/symbol of office pendant from the front.  The small 
plaques that form the chain would bear devices or arms as appropriate 
for the group.  For a Shire (not under a Barony) the chain would consist 
of plaques bearing the shire device/arms alternating with plaques 
bearing either the kingdom device/arms or perhaps just the star of 
Ansteorra.  A chain for a canton under a barony would consist of plaques 
alternating the device/arms of the canton with those of the barony and 
the kingdom. If a group/entity has a badge the individual plaques 
forming the chain could consist of the badge rather than the 
device/arms.  This would provide a distinct visual clue of what group 
the chain wearer belonged to, and the symbol/badge of office would 
indicate what that person does for the group delineated by the chain. 
 If you like I can come up with an image to show what I think I'm 
talking about <g>.

Etienne,

The link I previously posted about Collar of SS, form A Glossary of 
Terms Used in Heraldry by James Parker, 
http://www02.so-net.ne.jp/%7Esaitou/cgi-bin/more.cgi?input=Collar%20of%20SS, 
lists the Royal officials who have Collars of SS as part of their 
official regalia - the Kings of Arms and the Heralds are included in 
this list.

The following links lead to period paintings showing Collars of Office, 
notably the Collar for members of the Order of the Golden Fleece, the 
Order of the Garter, and secular offices such as Chancellor.  So collars 
evidently began as symbols of membership in orders of chivalry but 
evolved to become also symbols of specific offices.

Holbein 
<http://www.kfki.hu/%7Earthp/html/h/holbein/hans_y/1528/index.html> 
 Guildford wearing the Order of the Garter, Sir Thomas More wearing the 
Chancellor's chain of the Duchy of Lancaster (if you enlarge the 
painting the details of the chain are clear, showing the portcullis, and 
Tudor rose symbology of Lancaster)

Weyden <http://www.kfki.hu/%7Earthp/html/w/weyden/rogier/16portra/> all 
showing chain of the Golden Fleece (Philip the Good, Charles the Bold, 
Anthony of Burgundy)

Carpaccio 
<http://www.kfki.hu/%7Earthp/html/c/carpacci/1ursula/1/30return.html> 
 depicts a Steward of Venice with his chain of office

Coustens 
<http://www.kfki.hu/%7Earthp/html/c/carpacci/1ursula/1/30return.html>   
depicts the Chain of the Order of the Golden Fleece incorporated into 
the achievements for an individuals arms (neat idea for members of 
chivalric orders!).

I will continue to research this area.  So far period paintings (with 
commentary) seem to be proving to be excellent sources.

Ivo

Etienne de St. Amaranth wrote:

> At 08:36 AM 2/5/2004, you wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure if each GoOf has a badge for their office, but I would
>> think that you would not use the black star on group officer's
>> medallions, simply to avoid confusing them with Kingdom Officers. Also,
>> what would you do about officer's in between groups and kingdom, such as
>> regionals, or in a heraldic example, Pursuivant's/Herald's at large?
>
>
> I have a seal of office but not a collar or official insignia.  I am 
> working on a tabard to remain with the office.  The principal herald 
> wears the kingdom arms (when I wear a tabard) because that job is 
> always as the herald of the Crown as steward of Their Majesties' 
> College of Heralds, not just during court.
>
> Use of a kingdom badge element would make some logical sense for 
> kingdom offices.  Local group badges would be logically appropriate 
> for local group offices.  Regional heralds are lesser officers of 
> state to the kingdom, per kingdom law.  Use of the arms of the group 
> are restricted to the nobility of the group and that nobility's 
> herald, so don't put the arms of the shire on collars for all of the 
> officers; use a group badge or an element from the arms or a badge.  I 
> am still re-reading the latest post on collars to see what has turned 
> up but remember that (for a period perspective) we need examples of 
> heralds with collars, not just office holders in general, because 
> heralds were different than mayors, chancellors, bishops, etc. and 
> were treated differently.  The Lord Mayor, Lord Chancellor, Lord 
> Bishop, etc. did not equate to Lord Herald for all heralds (although 
> there were certainly some where it did) as a universal maxim.
>
> Pusuivants/Heralds at large are not an office, they are an honor or 
> ranking system.  Collars of office need an associated office to be 
> relevant.
>
> Etienne
> Star
>
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