[ANSTHRLD] question about counterchanging

tmcd at panix.com tmcd at panix.com
Thu Feb 5 09:12:57 PST 2004


"Lanen de Wylde" <lanen_de_wylde at grandecom.net> wrote:
> I had a request for opinions on whether or not a trefoil knot on per
> saltier, counterchanged, would ever pass. I don't know if I am
> posting this to the wrong area. Sorry if I am.

Don't worry; this is quite a fine area for that sort of thing.

> I would think that it would come back at us for excessive
> counterchange or non period elements, but I just don't know so I
> thought I would ask.

And it's a reasonable concern to have.  "Non-period style" isn't
really a concern in this case.

> I have done some quick mock ups of different ideas and posted them
> at the link below.
> http://www.geocities.com/lann_de_wylde/index.html

There's a problem with that URL.  The thing is actually a GIF file.
The browser I use (Opera) tries to display it as text, and it comes
out garbled.  I had to save it as index.html, rename it to index.gif,
and then I could see it.  Please rename it on the server.

> The one that Dante really wants to register is at the top left. Is
> this design even possible? I think it would be "sable and vert per
> saltier, a trefoil knot inverted (over all?) counterchanged and
> fimbriated or". <-----

   Per saltire vert and sable, a trefoil know inverted counterchanged.

BLUESS you for providing images.  If you're not 100% certain of the
blazon, you really should provide an image or an English-language
description, and you have.

A divided field is blazoned top-down, then left-to-right.  The word is
"saltire".  I'm taking your word for it that a normal trefoil knot has
kne point up and that this is inverted.  The SCA uses "overall" only
to describe a charge that partially overlies another charge -- but
since there's only one charge here, that's not applicable.  You can
only fimbriate a central ordinary or some other simple central charge:
a trefoil knot is WAY WAY too complicated to fimbriate.  But it's thin
enough to look like just artistic detailing.

This is an instaboing for color-on-color.  If you make the
"fimbriation" wider, it's an instaboing for fimbriation of a
too-complex item.  Basically, no way.

The shield at sinister chief (Per saltire vert and Or, a trefoil knot
inverted counterchanged) does not suffer from that.  However, due to
the small size and thinness of the knot as you drew it, it's hard to
tell what's going on.  Fill the space available -- with nothing else
on the shield, the corners of the knot should be approaching the
corners of the shield.  And make the lines of the knot thicker (even
more than the knot at sinister base), especially considering that
you're trying to express counterchanging.  If you did that, my own
opinion would probably be that it's busy but I can tell what's going
on -- but it would still be a judgment call.

> (bottom left with ermine?)

Looks gray to me, and that's not a heraldic color (except for
elephants and architecture).  If it were white (Per saltire vert and
argent, a trefoil knot inverted sable), it would be fine, as would
sinister base (Per saltire vert and sable, a trefoil knot inverted
Or).

As I wrote above, draw them all much, much larger.  If it's plain
tinctures, the ones on the bottom row are OK proportions, but fatten
them even more if counterchanging.

Daniel de Lincolia
-- 
Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com; tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work address



More information about the Heralds mailing list