[ANSTHRLD] Re: Replies to CD 6 vs 4&2

Mon Jul 26 19:12:33 PDT 2004

Thank you one and all for your advise.  Master Francois struck on the precedent whose application I was hoping to appeal (Dyan du Lac des Calandres)from LoAR 3/04 (Old Team).  I vehemently disagree with the ruling "A tassel Or between an increscent and a decrescent argent" conflicts with the registered "seme of increscents argent" when on the same field , but the submittor does not wish to pursue it.  You get 1 CD if you change the types and tinctures first and then change the number, but 2 CD's if the number is changed first and then changing the type and tinctures.  With this precedent "Azure, a bezant" conflicts with "Azure platey" if the latter is registered.  Doesn't that strike anyone else as convoluted?
Tostig
heralds-request at ansteorra.org wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 25, 2004 at 07:42:19PM -0700, Paul E. Kiefer, Jr. wrote:
> > --- Deborah R Wade wrote:
> > > This is embarressing ... Is there a CD for Change of Type between
> "6
> > > increscents" and "4 incresents and 2 tassels"?
> > 
> > Looking a little more carefully at RfS X.4.e, which deals with
> change
> > of type, it clearly states that you must change at least one-half
> of
> > the charges for the CD to apply, so the argument doesn't work since
> you
> > only changed one-third of the group of charges(yes, that's a "no").
> 
> This is generally true, although there's a long-standing precedent
> that
> the bottommost charge of a group of three is considered half of the
> group:
> 
> After much thought and discussion, it has been decided, for
> purposes of X.4.d, e and h of the Rules for Submission, that the
> bottommost of three charges, either on the field alone or around
> an
> ordinary, is defined as one-half of the group...multiple changes
> to
> the basemost of three charges under this definition will be
> granted
> a maximum of one CVD. (CL 9/6/90 p.2)

So where does a group of six charges fall?

> On the other hand, there's also this interesting precedent that may
> be
> applicable in the case of 6, if both pieces of armory have a divided
> field:
> 
> [Per fess dovetailed azure and argent, three mullets argent and a
> wolf's head erased sable] The device does not conflict with a ...
> Per
> fess embattled azure and argent, two mullets of four points and a
> comet fesswise, head to sinister, counterchanged. There is one CD
> for
> changing the number of the charges in the group. There is a second
> CD
> for changing the type and tincture of the primary charge(s) on one
> side of the line of division, even though that portion of the
> primary
> group is only one quarter of the group, per the following
> precedent
> from the November 1995 LoAR:
> 
> There is ... a CD for the change to the field and another for
> changing the type and tincture of the primary charge group on
> one
> side of the line of division, even though numerically this is
> not
> "one half" of the primary charge group. For a fuller discussion
> of
> this precedent granting a CD for two changes to charges on one
> side
> of a line of division even when less than half the charge group
> is
> affected, see the December 21, 1991 Cover Letter (with the
> November
> 1991 LoAR).
> 
> This situation arises very rarely aside from the well-known
> situation
> concerning the bottommost of a group of three charges two and one,
> which has its own different set of controlling precedents. The
> cited
> precedent appears to have remained in force; the registration
> history
> shows that this precedent has neither been overruled nor passively
> ignored. [Cassandra of Standing Stones, 01/03, A-Calontir] 

Now it was my turn to go "precedent-diving". I had to know what the
thinking was that led to this ruling that seemed to contradict X.4.e...

...>rummage-rummage-rummage<...

So, according to that July-21-1991 CL ruling, it's along the lines of
"visual impact", especially in cases where a field division is present.

As I read it, I didn't see any indication of any field division, so I
assumed that is was a single-tincture field.

> (Amazing what you stumble across when browsing precedents...)

So it would appear. Now, here's a question that I cropped up in my
mind that I didn't type up earlier: Would it be possible to say that
there are 2 CDs via a combined X.4.b and X.4.f? I'm looking at this as
"reduce the original group of charges from 6 items "X" to 4 and then
add a new primary group of 2 items "Y". I didn't say this earlier
because I wasn't sure that I could be backed up on this.

Lord Johann Kiefer Haydon (Paul E. Kiefer, Jr.)
Plain ol' herald.
(Playing the lawyer named "Devil's Advocate".)

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:41:59 -0400
From: Blaise de Cormeilles 
Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] Is there a CD between 6 vs 4 and 2?
To: "Heralds List, Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc."

Message-ID: <2147483647.1090834919@[192.168.1.3]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

--On Sunday, July 25, 2004 11:26 PM -0700 "Paul E. Kiefer, Jr." 
wrote:

> So it would appear. Now, here's a question that I cropped up in my
> mind that I didn't type up earlier: Would it be possible to say that
> there are 2 CDs via a combined X.4.b and X.4.f? I'm looking at this as
> "reduce the original group of charges from 6 items "X" to 4 and then
> add a new primary group of 2 items "Y". I didn't say this earlier
> because I wasn't sure that I could be backed up on this.

I should probably let Daniel answer this, but the short answer is "no". 
You have to take the shortest route of change. (That is, the fewest CDs to 
accomplish the change is what matters.)

Blaise
-- 
Jim Trigg, Lord High Everything Else O- /"\
SKA Seigneur Blaise de Cormeilles \ / ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN
Silver Nautilus Pursuivant, Atlantia X HELP CURE HTML MAIL
Webmaster, Academy of S. Gabriel / \

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 10:09:49 -0500
From: "Bordelon, Wendel" 
Subject: RE: [ANSTHRLD] Is there a CD between 6 vs 4 and 2?
To: "'pkieferjr at aol.com'" 
, "'Heralds List, Kingdom
of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc.'" 
Message-ID:
<1247608DFE0CAA45AC08C60422876CD978DFF8 at hou-ex-03.adprod.bmc.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

> > (Amazing what you stumble across when browsing precedents...)
> 
> So it would appear. Now, here's a question that I cropped up in my
> mind that I didn't type up earlier: Would it be possible to say that
> there are 2 CDs via a combined X.4.b and X.4.f? 

For a very detailed discussion on a very similar issue I would recommend
reading the December 2003 decision of Siridean MacLachlan. 

--Francois

------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Heralds mailing list
Heralds at ansteorra.org
http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/heralds

End of Heralds Digest, Vol 14, Issue 18
***************************************

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.ansteorra.org/pipermail/heralds-ansteorra.org/attachments/20040726/08d2d7a4/attachment.htm>