[ANSTHRLD] Appeal question

Crandall crandalltwo-scalists at yahoo.com
Tue Feb 8 06:35:19 PST 2005

Oh Danny Boy, 
You have done exactly as I wished and I thank you. I had requested a visual check and gotten no responce, and thus had to take it to this list. 
I appreciate your efforts. Does your file have an address, so that I might request an official permission to conflict? 
You are correct, I had hoped that the rose was bigger, or that the erased vs. the couped meant something. I had seen this possible conflict, and thus had decided to keep it couped. Erased looks so much better. 
The intent of my submission was to follow the College's suggestions for simplification of design and an attempt to make it more period style. 
The submission has been plagued from the first, with the first one lost, and the second, finally put through the system. 
I wish the thank the College for their efforts on my behalf, and will continue to help them in the same ways that I have done over the past 22 years. 
Crandall, Herald 

tmcd at panix.com wrote:
On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, Crandall wrote:
> Is there an official appeal format that I need to follow in order to
> get an answer on my device rejection?

There is no fixed appeal format. However, I wrote a short article on
the subject, at . It

A client with a returned item is annoyed. If they disagree with
the ruling and want to appeal it, they're annoyed enough to make a
fuss about it in writing. If the appeal isn't done right, they'll
get even more annoyed with the next return. Therefore, such cases
need extra attention and care. ...

Because of that, I am willing to help with appeals, and I suggest that
they be put on a heraldic mailing list with some traffic so it can be
discussed. It continues:

If you read no more of this article, at least read this, from the
precedents of Baldwin of Erebor, Laurel King of Arms, from his
cover letter of 8 June 85, page 2:

If you are writing an appeal, read the original ruling
carefully and try to respond to each of the objections. Be
concise--the more superfluous material you drag in, the harder
it is for someone else to follow your arguments. Be
factual--your purpose is to present new information or
reasoning. Above all, be polite--the objective is to get
things right, not to win at any cost.


The instant case is from the the August 2004 LoAR, Ansteorran returns:

Enoch Crandall mac Cranon. Device change. Per pale gules and azure,
a crane's head couped argent.

This conflicts with Ealasaid nic Chlurain (Fieldless) A swan's
head erased at the shoulders proper, maintaining a rose gules,
barbed, slipped and leaved vert. There is one CD between these
for fieldlessness. The difference between a swan's head and a
crane's head is just in the beak, which is not significant
enough for the required second CD.

This ruling does not contradict the existing difference given
between swans and cranes as entire birds, discussed in detail in
the Cover Letter to the November 2003 LoAR. Swans and cranes
have very different appearances, are drawn consistently
differently in period heraldry, and (per the November 2003 cover
letter) may be eligible for substantial difference from each

Crandall, I guess that you are thinking of appealing based on a visual
distinction between a crane's head and a swan's head? I have a scan
of Ealasaid's badge, and the rose really is a maintained charge worth
no CD. As for the rest ... on the Ansteorran LoI miniemblazon,
there's the little tuft on the crane's head, and the beak is shaped
somewhat differently, but both beaks are prominent (and not very
different), both have eye masks, both have long sinuous necks ... they
look a lot alike to me, heraldically. It's also hard to appeal a
visual call, because it comes down to "is too!" "is not!" "is too!".
Frankly, I am not optimistic at all.

Danel de Linccolne
Tim McDaniel; Reply-To: tmcd at panix.com
Heralds mailing list
Heralds at ansteorra.org

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