[ANSTHRLD] FW: Idea for a Device

Leslie Rose aggileslie at hotmail.com
Tue Apr 4 09:58:51 PDT 2006


She sent some images of her ideas to me.  Alas, they were too big for the 
list apparently.  So you are correct the beasties are combatant.  However, 
she has a second idea for a device that is split down the middle one half 
black the other white.  A sun on the top portion w/white on the black side 
and black on the white side (forgot what that's called) and under that two 
pegasi facing away from eachother same coloring as above sun.

The first idea would be pass if she changed the dragon color?  If not should 
she change to just one type of beastie or drop the sword?

Catarina


>From: "Mike C. Baker" <kihebard at hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: "Heralds List, Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA,Inc." 
><heralds at ansteorra.org>
>To: "Heralds List, Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA,Inc." <heralds at ansteorra.org>
>Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] FW: Idea for a Device
>Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 22:58:43 -0500
>
>Ly. Catarina,
>the imagery of the pegasus would indeed have been known to classicists & 
>nobles of the target time frame to the very best of my knowledge.  (One of 
>those "timeless" tales out of classical myth that captured the romantic 
>imagination -- the winged horse who preferred one pure spring above all 
>others, and the heroism of a single man [Bellerophon] who needed that steed 
>to accomplish what was otherwise death to attempt [hunt & kill the 
>Chimera], and *still* offered Pegasus freedom rather than break a noble 
>spirit to achieve a special goal.)  Among other sources, astronomers would 
>have known the classical constellation and the related story.  (Also, 
>consider the prior usage within SCA heraldry and presence in the Pictorial 
>Dictionary... in the minimal conflict checking I conducted for the proposed 
>device, I encountered at least two examples with "pegasi combattant".)
>
>As I understand the proposed device, a potential blazon would be
>
>    Vert,  a longsword palewise [maintained by/sustained by/between] a 
>pegasus and a dragon combattant argent, a chief Or.
>
>HE Robin is right on one point -- without seeing the actual picture 
>(emblazon), I can't be certain that "combattant" is the correct description 
>of the relative position between the two beasts.
>
>(Note:  as part of my personal efforts to improve understanding of *why*, 
>and not just work from my gut understanding of SCA heraldry, I have 
>attempted to include more direct references to the Rules for Submission in 
>what you see below than I sometimes have in the past.  Commentary / 
>consideration of this type being what it is, do not accept my 
>pronouncements as the final word!)
>
>May skirt perilously close to the edges of the "slot machine" ruling.  (RfS 
>VII.1.a); attempt to address by maintaining/sustaining the weapon -- the 
>difference between the two lies in the relative size of the sword; if the 
>combatants were of the same type (two dragons, two pegasi), "between" would 
>be sufficient.
>
>Red dragon on green field not allowed due to Rule of Tinctures.  (RfS 
>VIII.2, various subheadings)
>
>"Better" design would typically be for the combatant beasties to be of the 
>same type OR to drop the sword; however, there are examples of a sword 
>between two different combatant beasts in extant SCA armory.  With three 
>types of charge (beast1, sword, beast2), this does not qualify as simple 
>armory (X.2)
>
>Potential concerns / examples (from most recent known OandA, 2005Q4):
>
>Andrew de Londres|0410E|d|Vert, a sword Or hilted sable between two 
>continental panthers combattant Or incensed gules.
>    1CD for addition of chief, probable 1 for type&tincture of combatants
>
>Arx Draconis, Shire of|9101W|d|Vert, a sword proper debruised in chief by a 
>laurel wreath argent, the wreath maintained by two dragons combattant Or.
>    1CD for addition of chief, 1 for tincture of combatants (and *possibly* 
>another for addition *and* size of wreath -- but I keep getting 
>"maintained" and "sustained" confused w/o examples in front of me:  
>"maintained" is smaller, "sustained" is equivalent in visual weight to the 
>creature[s] holding the item... IIRC)
>
>Caol of Bannockburn|8906X|d|Vert, two seahorses combattant argent, 
>maintaining between them a staff topped by a harp Or.
>    1CD for addition of chief, 1 for type of combatants (and by X.1 
>possibly another for type & size of weapon -- but "sustained" would be more 
>obvious / less questionable)
>
>David Gladstone|0204E|d|Vert, in fess a rose between two rats combattant 
>argent.
>   1CD for addition of chief, 1 for type of combatants plus type of third 
>charge
>
>Donovan Delane|8510Q|d|Per pale argent and gules, a sword sable between a 
>unicorn and a dragon combattant counterchanged.
>    Provides an example of [weapon:sword] between dis-similar combattant 
>beasts; however, "prior registration does not ensure future 
>registerability".  Clear by field tincture(s) and addition of chief, plus 
>one-third of primary group.
>
>Eoforhild of Cantwarabyrig|9208C|d|Vert, two boars combattant argent, each 
>maintaining a recorder Or.
>    1CD for addition of chief, 1 for type of combatants; recorders are 
>tertiaries ("maintaining") and may not be be sufficient for additional 
>difference (if your client also wanted boars / a boar)
>
>
>..und so weiter -- I did my "search-check" as far as Magnus Tindalo this 
>afternoon / evening, between other tasks.
>
>Adieu, Amra / ttfn - Mike / Pax ... Kihe
>
>Mike C. Baker
>SCA: al-Sayyid Amr ibn Majid al-Bakri al-Amra, F.O.B, OSCA
>"Other": Reverend Kihe Blackeagle PULC (the DreamSinger Bard)
>Opinions? I'm FULL of 'em
>alt. e-mail: KiheBard at hotmail.com  OR MCBaker216 at cs.com
>   Buy my writings!:   http://www.lulu.com/WizardsDen
>   http://www.livejournal.com/users/kihebard/ 
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