[ANSTHRLD] Orle Comments on July 2006 Gazette ILOI

debell1@txcyber.com debell1 at txcyber.com
Wed Aug 2 00:09:49 PDT 2006

Magnus von Lübeck, Orle Herald sends comments on the July 2006 ILOI.

1. Alessandra Giovanni (Steppes)
[Name] Conflict with Alessandra di Giovanni registered March 2004.
[Bernard de Barre, March 2000, R-Drachenwald] "Conflict with the
registered name Bernard ben Barra. Neither ben nor de contribute to
difference and the primary elements are not significantly different."
[Device] Conflict with Ælfwynn of Boscastle November 2004: "Per pale
argent and azure, two horses combatant counterchanged."

2. Alessandra Leoncini (Rosenfeld)
[Name] Feminine Given Names from the Online Catasto of Florence of 1427 by
Arval Benicoeur www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/catasto/ has:
Italian Renaissance Women's Names by Rhian Lyth of Blackmoor Vale
www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/italian.html has:
Family Names Appearing in the Catasto of 1427
www.s-gabriel.org/names/ferrante/catasto/family_names.html has
[Device] Blazon as: "Per chevron embattled argent and gules, two sheaves
of arrows gules and a lion's face Or.

3. Ana Maria de Albion (unknown)
[Name] Spanish Names from the Late 15th Century by Juliana de Luna
Names from the Account Books of Isabel la Catolica (1477-1504, mostly
1483-1504) Full Names of Women
Ana de Albion
Maria de Almeria

4. Ascelyn of Glentewrde (Elfsea)
[Device] Blazon as: "Per bend sinister gules and Or, a unicorn argent and
a rose gules."

5. Catalina Isabel de Silva (Elfsea)
[Name] Here is documentation that doesn't need photocopies.
   Catalina: 16th Century Spanish Names
Feminine Given Names Alphabetically by Elsbeth Anne Roth
Catalina Delgada (1539, III.2),
Catalina Sanz (1560, IV.70),
Catalina Lomelin (1571, V.3166),
Catalina Sánchez (1571, V.3307),
Catalina de la Torre (1578, IV.9)
   Isabel: Isabel Cabello (1539, III.4),
Isabel Alemán (1560, IV.18),
doña Isabel de Carvajal (1571, V.3119),
Isabel López (1574, V.3629),
Isabel de Navarrete (1578, IV.8)
   de Silva: Spanish Names from the Late 15th Century by Juliana de Luna
Names from the Account Books of Isabel la Catolica (1477-1504, mostly
1483-1504) Locative Surnames
www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/isabella/locative.html has
de Silva
[Device] Blazon as: "Azure, a swan naiant and in chief a mullet argent."
Conflict with Arianwen of the Tuntlewald July 1971: "Azure, a swan argent,
beaked and membered Or, within eight mullets in annulo argent."
Conflict with Sheryl of Thespis January 1973: "Azure, a swan naiant argent
crowned Or."

6. Christopher Summerset (Rosenfeld)
[Name] Reaney & Wilson s.n. Somerset has Walter de Sumerset 1206.
[Device] Conflict with Blair Dubois August 1983: "Azure, a bend sinister
between a cat sejant guardant and a dove close Or."

7. Constance Elizabeth Campbell (Steppes)
[Name] Feminine Given Names in A Dictionary of English Surnames by Talan
Gwynek www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/reaneyAG.html
Constance and Elizabeth from 1279.
Campbell: Reaney & Wilson s.n. Campbell has Colin Campbell from 1282.
[Device] Blazon as: "Purpure, on a bend cotised argent four horseshoes
palewise vert."
Conflict with Isabella Catharini July 1992: "Purpure, on a bend cotised
argent three irises purpure."

8. David ben Leon (Steppes)
[Device] Conflict with Mephiboseth ben Yosef July 2004: "Azure, a bend Or
between a star of David and a lit candle argent, a bordure Or."

9. Eilína Mac Ascaidh (unknown)
[Name] Mixing Old Norse and Gaelic is a weirdness [Cera ingen Leoid, March
2000]  MacLysaght usually gives you modern forms of the name.
   Reaney & Wilson s.n. Macaskie has Gilbert Makasky from 1316, 1318-1319.
 Gaelic MacAscaidh 'son of Ascaidh', a pet form of Askell.
   Woulfe Irish Names and Surnames page 321 s.n. Mac Ascaidh gives M'Oskie
from the time of Elizabeth I and a pet form of some Norse or
Anglo-Saxon name.
   Feilitzen, The Pre-Conquest Personal Names of Domesday Book page 168
under Aski (Old Danish) has forms Asci, Ascius, Aschi, Ascha.
   CELT, The Annals of Ulster.
U1171.2 "Ascall, mac Torcaill, ri Atha & Eoan Mear a h- Innsibh Orc tainic
a fortacht Ascaill & Ghall Atha Cliath do marbadh do na Gallaibh cetna."
U1171.2 "Ascall, son of Torcall, king of Ath-cliath and John (the Mad)
from the Islands of Orc (who came in aid of Torcall and of the Foreigners
of Ath-cliath) were killed by the same Foreigners."
There was certainly some form of Ascaidh around in Gaelic causing all of
this.  You have to change the name to match gender of the given name.  I
can't give you an exact form but Eilína ingen Ascaidh seems registrable
with this evidence.

10. Elisabeth Pendarvis (Elfsea)
[Name] Genealogy web lists are one of the most unreliable sources for
period name forms.  The correct URL
"Cambourne Parish records by H. Tapley-soper, F.S.A., Exeter City,
Pendarvas, Th. & John SS of Alexander 1592 10 ....
Under Burials, p. 96: Pendarvis, Thomas s. of Allexr. 1591 18 June; P. 98:
Pendarvas, John s of Allexr. 1595 30 Jan. Thus we see the John Pendarvis,
son of Allexander, that Mr. Heyward married to Anne Arundell, died as a
child. He could not possibly have been the father of our Joseph. John's
brother, Thomas also died young and was buried 18 June 1591."
   Here is an another source that should work:
PENDERVES, Alexander (see THOMAS, Alexander) PERS, Roger, yeoman:
Whitstone, 1623 (44 Swann)
THOMAS als. PENDERVES, Alexander: Marasacke als. Camborne, 1625 (16 Clarke)

11. Elspeth de Stervlen (Elfsea)
[Device] Blazon as: "Purpure, a cinquefoil and a gore argent."  This one
is a headache with possible conflicts!
   Titus of Wormwood February 1985: "Purpure, a cinquefoil slipped and
singly leaved argent."  There is one CD for adding the gore and nothing
for the slip and leaves.  I can't see how you would get another CD out
of this.  The argent cinquefoil can't be in the center of the field
since it would overlap the argent gore.  That would make the move to
chief forced.
   Adrienne du Val des Roses January 1990: "Purpure, a rose argent, barbed
vert, within a bordure nebuly argent."  One CD for type for a bordure
versus a gore.  Nothing for cinquefoil versus rose.
   William Silke July 1996: "Vert, a rose slipped and leaved and a gore
argent."  One CD for the field tincture.  Nothing for cinquefoil versus
   [Lucia filia Fausti August 2001 R-Meridies] ... "by longstanding
precedent (set in November 1990) reaffirmed as recently as September
2000, there is no difference between a rose and a cinquefoil".
   In this precedent the gores don't cause a forced move but the cross and
the gores aren't the same tincture as in our case.
[Christoph von dem Schwarzwald September 1990 LoAR A-Ansteorra] "Gules, in
chief a cross formy Or and two gores argent.  Versus Bernawick, et al.
(Papworth, p. 613), Gules, a cross patty Or, there is a CVD for moving the
cross to chief and another for the addition of the gores."  [A cross, vs.
a cross in chief between two gores ] "There is a CVD for moving the cross
to chief and another for the addition of the gores." [implying the move to
chief isn't forced by adding the gores] (LoAR September 1990 p.1).

12. Frederich von Königsburg (Rosenfeld)
[Name] This is misspelled.  It means king's mountain NOT king's castle. 
Brechenmacher page 89 s.n. Königsberger has it from the Old Norse
Königsberg and in 1470 Joh. Konigßpergk.

14. Gerhart Wolfgang der Rote (Elfsea)
[Device] This pile isn't wavy and needs to be returned for a redraw.

15. Giustiniano Benintendi (Steppes)
[Device] Oh how does this conflict, let us count the ways.
   Beorn Collenferth October 1982: "Azure, a chevron between a harp, an
axe reversed and a sabre-toothed tiger statant argent."
   Rannveigr Haakonardottir December 1983: "Azure, a chevron between two
falcons close respectant and a drakkar's prow reversed argent."
   Angela of the Stoney Oak Forest June 1984: "Azure, a chevron between
two acorns and an oak leaf argent."
   Ramón de Castellón de la Plana November 1994: "Azure, issuant from a
chevron between three compass stars, a demi-lion contourny maintaining
an anchor argent."

16. Gregor Macbheathain (Gate’s Edge)
[Name] Black s.n. Gregor page 327 gives Robert son of Gregor from c.1240. 
Black uses modern Scots Gaelic.
   [Jamie Mac Fionnlaigh, January 2002, A-Caid] "As Black's notation of
the Gaelic form of the byname as one word is a modern convention, we
have registered this byname as two words."
   [Eoin an Eich Ghil mac Cionaodha, November 2001, A-Trimaris] "As he
wanted this name to be a literal byname meaning 'son of Cinaed' rather
than 'a member of the MacCináeda family', we have separated the
particle mac from the patronym and made the m lowercase-to follow
conventions used to indicate a literal byname."
   Scottish Gaelic Given Names: For Men by Sharon L. Krossa
has Beathán from the 1300s.  Beathain would be the genitive form and the B
wouldn't lenite.
A post-1200 Gaelic form would be Gregor Mac Beathain.  Normally we would
correct the name by placing a space after mac and correcting the lenited
Bh to B.  The submitter has checked the [no changes please return my name]
box.  So this needs to be returned for grammar correction (and to teach
people not to check the no changes box for Gaelic names).

17. Gwen verch Cynwrig de Ynys Mon (Elfsea)
[Name] Ynys Mon is the Welsh name of the island of Anglesey, not the Isle
of Man.  The place name has no documentation and needs to return for
further work.
[Device] Blazon as: "Vert, four fleurs-de-lys bases to center Or."
Conflict with Katlin von Kappel October 2001: "Per saltire sable and
gules, four fleurs-de-lys bases to center Or."

18. Jaquelinne Marguerite de la Ryver (Rosenfeld)
[Device] Blazon as: "Argent, a water-bouget and in chief two bars gemel
wavy azure."
Conflict with Eadweard of Northampton March 1984: "Argent, a water-bouget

19. Katarzyna Nikolaieva (Emerald Keep)
[Name] Polish Given Names in Nazwiska Polaków by Walraven van Nijmegen
Mikolaj, Mikulaj, Nikolaj (Nikólaos) [Nicholas]
A mix of Polish and Russian hasn't been ruled on yet.

20. Kenzing von Morgarten (Elfsea)
[Name Change] Morgarten has NO documentation. Daniel, did you do this one
too?  From the 1911 Brittannica www.1911encyclopedia.org/Morgarten s.n.
Morgarten "MORGARTEN, the name of the pasture slopes that descend
westwards to the south end of the lake of Aegeri in the Swiss canton of
Zug, about 2 m. by road from the Sattel station on the railway line from
Schwyz to Zurich. It was at the foot of these slopes and on the shore of
the lake that the small Swiss force defeated the large Austrian army,
advancing from Zug on Schwyz, on the 15th of November 1315, and so laid
the foundations of Swiss liberty."

21. Leannán MacNeil (Elfsea)
[Name] The documentation was incorrectly copied from the books.
OC&M page 122 s.n. Lennán, lists Lennán mac Cathrannach 898-915.   Leannán
is the post-1200 spelling of the name.
Black page 550 s.n. MacNeil lists Gilbert McNeill from 1329.
There is a weirdness for mixing Gaelic and Anglicized Gaelic.

22. Luciana Caterina di Boniface (Elfsea)
[Name] This gets returned for further work on the lack of summary of the
information in the Saint Gabriel letters.  Orle does not have time to
write your required Saint Gabriel report summary for you.  That is the job
of the submitting herald.  This ruling shows how to summarize St. Gabriel
letters.  You include what date is given for the name and the footnote
that goes with it listing the source.  It is also interesting that no
changes are allowed and major changes are allowed at the same time.
[Bella Lucia da Verona, April 2004 LoAR, A-Lochac] "We note that the
documentation was not adequately summarized on the LoI, although the
College of Arms commenters filled in the blanks. St. Gabriel letters
provide extensive footnotes on the sources from which the names are drawn,
as well as the dates for most of the names discussed. This information
should be included when summarizing documentation from a St. Gabriel
[Aidan Alpin of Dunkeld May 2004 LoAR A-Middle] "The documentation was not
adequately summarized on the LoI. It is not sufficient to say that a name
appears as a header form in a source; many sources, including the sources
used to document this submission, include explicitly modern names and
describe them as such in the text. It is necessary to summarize what such
a source says about a name and to provide dated examples if possible. If
the College had not provided the missing dates and descriptions, we would
have been forced to return this submission."
[Device] The ombrellino hasn't been registered before.  Documentation
would have to be provided for a first registration or it will be returned.
 There would also have to be evidence it isn't presumptuous of the Pope or
too closely and uniquely identified with the Papacy for registration. 
That is an issue for Laurel but the submitter should be aware of it.
www.heraldica.org/topics/pope.htm "The ombrellino was the emblem of the
Pope's temporal powers. This can be seen from the fact that it is shown
behind the arms of the camerlengo (the cardinal who heads the Apostolic
Camera), who automatically becomes responsible for the Pope's temporal
powers when the Pope dies. Coins issued in the Papal states during
interregna invariably show the arms of the camerlengo, with the cardinal's
hat and the ombrellino. The ombrellino was used by the popes in
processions as early as the 12th c. Its shape varied over time, and is now
that of a conical sunshade, with vertical stripes of gules and or, and an
edge where the tinctures are counterchanged. It is carried by a man
standing behind the Pope. Its use as a badge indicating temporal powers
dates to Alexander VI Borgia (1492-1503). It is also used as the mark of a
basilica (major or minor), and is usually displayed to the right of the
altar. The rank of basilica is an honor bestowed by the Pope on any church
he pleases."

23. Miguel Sebastian da Oporto (Steppes)
[Badge] Blazon as: (Fieldless) "Issuant from a goblet Or, a phoenix gules."

24. Rosmerryn Carew de Courcelles (Elfsea)
[Name] Return for further work on documentation.
[Device] Blazon as: "Gules, a heart and in chief three mullets Or."

25. Roulant dieu Marat (Rosenfeld)
[Name] French patronymics are either unmarked or use fitz.  This form
needs to be documented or dropped.

26. Sean Cannan (Elfsea)
[Device] A sword proper is argent with a hilt Or.

27. Wolfger von Eisenstedt (Rosenfeld)
[Name] Whoever put this submission together didn't tell us what
information was in the books.
Wolfger: There is nothing on page 569 about Wolfger since that is the T
section.  Under s.n. Wolfger, Bahlow gives it as a rare old German
personal name.
Eisenstadt is a city in Austria.  It means iron town.
under Welcome to Eisenstadt
then under HISTORIC FACTS:
"In 1373 "Eysenstat" was bestowed city rights. In 1388 the city received
market rights. It was at this time that the Kanizsai family saw to it that
the city was surrounded by strong fortifications and they also had a water
fortress built inside these city walls."
I assume the city tourist board in that part of Austria knows the history
of their city.

28. Xene Theriane (Steppes)
[Alternate Name] Ximena de Grifón y Mendoça.
   Ximena - Diez Melcon, s.n. Ximena page 92 Bellida Ximena 1042.
This is in a section where the second name element is a Latinized nominative.
Page 114 s.n. Ximenus equates the name with Jimeno and Simeno.  One
example is Garci Semeno 1226.  There isn't enough cited from Talan's
article to find where in Melcon he found those citations.
   Grifón - Diez Melcon, page 274, s.n. Grifon, dates Pedro Grifón to 1251.
This is in a section on animal nicknames under the chapter surnames formed
from nicknames.
   Mendoça: www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/isabella/locative.html
Spanish Names from the Late 15th Century by Juliana de Luna
Names from the Account Books of Isabel la Catolica (1477-1504, mostly
1483-1504) Locative Surnames
de Mendoça
The name becomes inherited surname early on.
   The name elements are period.  With the current information the
structure looks like:
Given Name de (from) [Descriptive Byname y (and) Locative]
Something is missing here but the documentation provided addresses nothing
about the desired structure of the name.

29. Yermiyahu ben Avraham Malach M’Yaffo (Loch Soilleir)
[Name] A complete citation isn't given for the title and publication of
the source.  I am guessing it is The New Strong's Complete Dictionary of
Bible Words originally by James Strong, a professor of theology at Drew
Theological Seminary in the late 1800s.  It is a wonderful source for
Bible study but its use for our purpose is rather doubtful.  The given
names and terms are from c.1000 B.C.  There is no clear evidence that
Malach M’Yaffo was ever used as a Hebrew name.  It is the usual problem of
using a dictionary to construct a name.  There is also no evidence
provided that Jewish names followed this structure in the medieval period
or that the given names were used in our period.  I suspect the given
names are period, though.
   Yermiyahu: Bob Jones University has Strong's works in Linked Word
Project at www.bju.edu/bible/ (Didn't think I would ever see them in
SCA heraldry.)
   From Jeremiah 1:1 English transliteration from Hebrew of Jeremiah:
Yirm at yah {yir-meh-yaw'} or Yirm at yahuw {yir-meh-yaw'-hoo}
   From Jonah 1:3 English transliteration from Hebrew of Joppa: Yapho
{yaw-fo'} or Yaphow' (Ezra 3:7) {yaw-fo'}
   From Jonah 1:5 English transliteration from Hebrew of mariner: mallach
   Avraham: SAINT GABRIEL REPORT #2406 "The following are typical examples
from Hebrew grave inscriptions: [2] Rachel bat Avraham Ortafa, 1527" 
[2] Emmanuel, Yitzchak Shmuel. Matzevot Saloniki [Hebrew]. Jerusalem:
Machon Ben Tzvi, 1963. pp. 33, 35, 39, 42, 45, 50, 54, 58, 79, 95.
   This should be returned for further work.  It may be registerable as a
rare Hebrew name, but not with the documentation provided.  Most Jewish
names are patronymics.

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