[ANSTHRLD] June Gazette ILOI Orle commentarey

debell1@txcyber.com debell1 at txcyber.com
Wed Aug 2 00:30:26 PDT 2006

This is commentary issued by the Orle office which was left out of the
June Internal Collated commentary.  This is the final product of quite a
few hours of research on the June submissions.
It needs to go in the September Gazette when the results for the June ILOI
decision meeting are published.

Magnus von Lübeck, Orle Herald sends comments on the June 2006 ILOI.

1. Arias Yanes (Elfsea)
[Device] Blazon as "Argent, a wolf rampant between three escallops, a
bordure gules."  The bordure is narrow enough to return this.

3. Clara von Ulm (Loch Soilleir)
[Device] Name registered March 2006.

4. Debora of Durham (Bjornsborg)
[Name] Given Names in Chesham, 1538-1600/1 by Mari Elspeth nic Bryan
www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/chesham Debora dates to 1582 England.
Reaney & Wilson s.n. Durham lists William de Durham in 1236.
[Device] There is one registration of a dun cow proper: Seamus Donn
January 1992: "Per pale argent and azure, a dun cow statant contourny
proper."  The cow is brown and I would recommend using watercolor marker
brown to color it.  Seamus Donn was registered because it was mentioned in
commentary that Henry VII had a badge with a dun cow on it but no source
was given.  A possible source is  

5. Dominique Michelle le Vesseur (Wiesenfeuer)
[Device] The correct registered name is Dominique Michelle le Vasseur.

7. Eithne inghean Mac Coinaoit (Elfsea)
[Device] Eithne ingen mhic Chionaoit was the form submitted on the LoI.
This looks like a cross of Calatrava.  We have no example of a cross aziz.
 Blazon as: "Gules, on a amphora between three roses Or a cross of
Calatrava gules."

8. Finnvaldr inn Grimmi (Bjornsborg)
[Name] SAINT GABRIEL REPORT 2400 "We also found several other bynames that
mean "ruthless".  Some possibilities are: <hin grimma> or <in grimma> from
<grimmr> "grim, cruel, ruthless, ferocious".  An attested masculine
instance of the byname is <Heimer hinn grimmi> [2]; <hin grimma> is the
feminine form of the byname."
[2] Lind, E.H., Norsk-Isla:ndska Personbinamn fra*n Medeltiden (Uppsala:
1920-21); s.vv. <Herkia>, <Grimmi>, <Biarnylr>.  Lind's source for
<Grimmi> is <{TH}i{dh}riks saga af Bern>, a medieval quasi-historical saga
which is thought to have been compiled perhaps as late as 1250-1251,
although possibly as early as the late 12th century.  There are three main
manuscripts surviving: one from Norway ca. late 13th century, and two 17th
century paper MSS from Iceland.  There's also a Swedish translation,
<Didrikskro:nikan>, made ca. mid-15th century.  Finch, R.G.,
"{TH}i{dh}riks saga af Bern," Medieval Scandinavia: An Encyclopedia.
Garland Reference Library of the Humanities 934. Pulsiano, Phillip et al.,
eds. New York: Garland.  1993. pp. 662-663.

9. Genna di Chiaramonte (Elfsea)
[Name] The locative byname uses the preposition da.
[Device] Blazon as "Or, a tiger rampant gules and a mullet sable within a
bordure rayonny gules."

10. Gerhardt Pfister (Eldern Hills)
[Device] Gerhard Phister was the form submitted on the LoI.

12. Gunthar Waldmann (Loch Soilleir)
[Device] Blazon as: "Per bend sinister vert and sable, a bear’s head
cabossed within an orle argent."

13. Hanna von Dahl (Elfsea)
[Name] Hanna: We can document it as German to avoid French.  Germans like
to avoid the French when possible.  Bahlow, Dictionary of German Names,
Edda Gentry translation s.n. Hannen has "metronymic (mother's name) = son
of Hanna: Gereke Hannen 1343".
[Device] Conflict with Werenher von Ingolstadt January 1995: "Azure, on a
lozenge argent, a bear statant erect sable."

14. Karl Thorgeirsson (Northkeep)
[Name] It sounds very close to Karl Thorirsson registered February 1988.

15. Katharine Etaín Kavanagh (Bonwicke)
[Name] Katharine: The actual source: Women's Given Names from Early 13th
Century England by Talan Gwynek
www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/eng13/eng13f.html dates Katharine from
the 13th century.
Etaín: OCM under Étaín gives Étaín as the pre-1200 spelling with a leading
accented E for a Gaelic lady's given name.
Kavanagh: SAINT GABRIEL REPORT 1683 "<Kavanaugh> is a modern English
spelling of the Gaelic surname <Caomha/nach>.  Once branch of the
MacMurrough sept was known by this name [4]."
[4] MacLysaght, Edward, More Irish Families (Blackrock, Co. Dublin: Irish
Academic Press, 1982), s.nn. MacMurrough, Kavanagh.
MacLysaght uses modern forms unless he dates them to period so this one
should be modern.  This also has the problem of using a double given name
with Gaelic which will get it returned.
[Aislinn Fiona of Rumm August 2001 R-An Tir] "... in the name Aislinn
Fiona of Rumm, Fiona can only be interpreted as a second given name or as
an unmarked matronymic. Use of double given names and unmarked matronymics
in Gaelic have both been cause for return in the past."
[Honor Catlin MacCurtain March 2001 LoAR, A-ATENVELDT] "Submitted as Honor
Caitlin MacCurtain, this name was a resubmission. The earlier submission,
Honor Caitlin nic Curtin, was returned for the two weirdnesses of using a
double given name in an Irish name and mixing Gaelic and Anglicized
spellings. Unfortunately, the submitter misread the return. Instead of
dropping the Gaelic second given name, as suggested by Laurel, she changed
the patronymic, which was already in an Anglicized form. We have changed
the second given name to a Middle English form found in Withycombe's The
Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names."

16. Kiianin the Impaler (Bonwicke)
[Name] Kiianin: Paul Goldschmidt's Dictionary of Period Russian Names -
Section KA Kiianin (byn) -- "Kievan?" Nikifor Kiianin, Kievan boiar. 11th
This is a byname, possibly a locative for Kiev, but not a given name. 
Return for lack of given name.
Impaler: Rfs.III.2.a.v. is "A byname may be a descriptive nickname: Osbert
le Gentil, Skalla-Björn 'bald, Conrad Klein 'small, Klein Conrad, Robertus
cum Barba 'with the beard, Ludolf metter langher nese 'with the long nose,
Henry Beard, Rudolfus der Esel 'the Ass, Gilbert le Sour, John Skamful,
Thorvaldr inn kyrri 'the quiet, Iain Camshròn 'hook-nose."
   Doesn't look like that documents the byname "impaler".
   The impaler as a byname comes from Vlad Tepes, the man behind the
Dracula legend, who is considered one of the most evil rulers in the
history of Eastern Europe.  His idea of entertainment for feasts was to
have captured Moslems impaled on stakes for the amusement of his
guests.  With the current political situation between the West and
Islam we want nothing to do with this.
   [December 1987 LoAR, R-Caid] "Dmitri Yaroslavich Tsepesh. It was the
consensus of the commentary in the College that the byname Tsepesh,
which means Impaler and is associated with Vlad the Impaler, prototype
for the Dracula legend, is offensive in itself, offensive in its
association with Vlad/Dracula and should not be registered."
   It was grossly offensive then and it still is today.
Rfs.IV. "Offensive names may not be registered, as is required by General
Principle 2 of these rules. Names may be innately offensive from their
content, like John Witchburner. A name element can also be offensive
because of its usual associations or the context in which it is placed. 
Names may be considered offensive even if the submitter did not intend
them to be."
Rfs.IV.4. "Offensive Political Terminology. Terminology specifically
associated with social or political movements, or events that may be
offensive to a particular race, religion, or ethnic group will not be
   The byname "impaler" is very likely to be uniquely associated with Vlad
the Impaler and unregistrable for that reason also.  Rfs.VI.3. "Names
Claiming Specific Relationships. Names that unmistakably imply identity
with or close relationship to a protected person or literary character
will generally not be registered."

18. Pukhta Lovvek (Wiesenfeuer)
[Name] Wickenden 2nd edition has:
Pukhta (m) -- "puff." Vars: Puchta. 1479.
Lovek (m) -- "hunter." Lovek. 1031. Vars: Lovich. 1107. Lovvek. 1031.
Lovchii (byn) hunter. Vars: Lovhai (Il'ia Oleksandrov syn Lovhago,
landowner). 1477.  The 3rd edition adds Kurilo Lovchich, boiar, 1609.
Occupational Bynames in Medieval Russia by Paul Wickenden of Thanet
www.goldschp.net/archive/jobnames.html has: Hunter - Lovtsevich (1555)
Based on this data Lovvek would be a masculine given name not a byname. 
Russian doesn't use unmarked patronymics.  Until evidence is provided that
Lovvek was used as a byname, there is no byname and it isn't registerable.
 Normally we would just correct the grammar to make it a byname.  The
submitter checked the [no changes please return my name] box so this gets

20. Sáerlaith inghean Caichear (Loch Soilleir)
[Name] OCM under Sáerlaith gives Sáerlaith as pre-1200 spelling.  Drop the
"noble princess" stuff unless you are trying to get it returned for
presumption.  OCM under Caicher gives Caichear as the post-1200 spelling
of the name.  Mixing Middle Gaelic (pre-1200) and Early Modern Gaelic
(post-1200) is a weirdness [Tigernach Ó Catháin, November 2001].
[Device] Blazon as: "Sable, a bend sinister between in bend a dragon
sejant and a horse’s head couped Or."  The bend sinister is too narrow to
be registered and will have to be redrawn.  Conflict with Hermann Otto
Koehlermann January 1973: "Sable, a bend sinister Or." deceased

21. Sigen Fridreksodittir (Northkeep)
[Badge] The registered name is spelled Sigen Fridreksdottir.

23. Tiarnán of Bryn Gwlad (Bryn Gwlad)
[Name] Barony of Bryn Gwlad was registered March 1980.  The Saint Gabriel
reports have nothing useful about this name.  Report 591 has a warning on
it and no references to where Tiarnan was found.  Report  1147 states the
form Tiarnan is modern so it wouldn't be registrable.  A change to Tiernan
fixes the problem.
[April 2003 LoAR A-ATENVELDT] "Tiernan Dugrais. Listed on the LoI as
Tighearnán Dugrais, the LoI noted that the submitter's first choice for a
given name was Tiernan. Being unable to find documentation for Tiernan in
period, they noted recent registrations of Tiernan as a given name and
asked that if anyone had access to the documentation for these
submissions, the submitter would appreciate it.
By coincidence, the registerability of Tiernan was addressed recently (so
recently, in fact, that the LoAR with that discussion was not available
during the commentary period for this submission):
There was some question regarding the registerability of Tiernan. Tiernan
is an Anglicized Irish form of the Gaelic masculine given name Tighearnán.
The question is whether or not Tiernan is a period Anglicized form of this
The given name Tighearnán was in use in late period as can be seen in the
Annals of the Four Masters, vol. 6, (www.ucc.ie/celt/published/G100005F/),
entry M1590.3, which mentions Tighearnan Bán mac Briain mic Eoghain Uí
Ruairc. Because this name was used in late period, it is logical that
there was an Anglicized form of this name existed. Since no Anglicized
forms of this given name have yet been found in period Anglicized records
(probably due mainly to the scarcity of such records), we have only period
Anglicized forms of bynames formed from Tighearnán to examine. Woulfe (p.
410 s.n. Mac Tighearnáin) dates M'Tiernane and M'Ternane to temp.
Elizabeth I-James I. Woulfe (p. 652 s.n. Ó Tighearnáin) also dates O
Ternane and O Tiernan to the same time period. Given these examples,
Tiernan is reasonable as a period Anglicized form of Tighearnán. [Tiernan
Moor, LoAR February 2003, A-An Tir]
We have changed the given name in this submission to Tiernan, which was
the submitter's first choice as a given name, since it is a plausible as
an Anglicized Irish name in period, and so is registerable."

24. Vilhiálmr Vetr (Bryn Gwlad)
[Name] The byname Vetr means 'winter'.  The submitter checked the [no
changes please return my name] box and the byname is upper case.  [October
2002 Cover Letter] "Therefore, we are upholding the current policy of
requiring descriptive bynames in Old Norse to be registered in lowercase."
  We cannot change the byname to lowercase to correct the name so this
gets returned.
[Device] Blazon as: "Argent, three annulets interlaced two and one within
a bordure dovetailed purpure."  Return for lack of name.

25. Vivian McKinnon (Loch Ruadh)
[Device] Blazon as: "Per chevron argent and vert, three thistles one and
two proper and a Celtic cross argent."  Conflict with Duncan Alastair
MacRae April 2001: "Per chevron argent and vert, three thistles one and
two proper and a broadarrow inverted argent."

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