[ANSTHRLD] Flower question.

Cisco Cividanes engtrktwo at gmail.com
Mon Jul 13 16:44:10 PDT 2009

Well, first of all, no apologies are necessary. I am very new to the
world of book heraldry, so the misunderstanding most likely rested
entirely in my reading of the commentary. We live, we learn, we go
on... right? :)

However, thank you for clarifying the details, that does help me see
things much more clearly.

As for the blazon... hum.... like I said before, I'm new to this.

Here is what I know about the flower, though I can't document any of
it at the moment.

1. The name, I believe, comes from "dagwood' , in reference to the
wooden spears or arrows that could be made from its tough wood.

2. Wikipedia has the following alternate name, as cited by Chaucer.

"Another earlier name of the dogwood in English is the whipple-tree.
Geoffrey Chaucer uses the word whippletree in the Canterbury Tales
(The Knight's Tale, verse 2065) to refer to the dogwood. Another
larger item made of dogwood still bears the name of the tree from
which it is carved. The whippletree is an element of the traction of a
horse-drawn cart, which links the drawpole of the cart to the
harnesses of the horses in file."


I'm not usually one to rely on Wikipedia alone, but its all I had on
the spur of the moment.


On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 6:08 PM, Tim McDaniel<tmcd at panix.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Jul 2009, Cisco Cividanes <engtrktwo at gmail.com> wrote:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IMG_1527Dogwood.jpg
> [Cornus florida]
>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cornus_sanguinea_jfg.jpg
> ...
>> And for people wondering where this question came from. A proposed
>> badge of mine displays four dogwood flowers. As they are drawn, they
>> depict the species of dogwood that I understand to be native to
>> Europe. It has been pointed out that the badge might be rejected on
>> the grounds that these flowers do not match previously passed
>> devices that displays what are distinctly a round petaled flower
>> like the type found in north America or China.
> It would not be returned.  My apologies if I gave that impression at
> the consultation table.   Rules for Submission VII.4,
> <http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/rfs.html#7.4>, quoted in full
> below, is explicit that European flora can be registered (ceteris
> paribus) and is not a step from period practice.  The emblazon you
> showed me had long skinny flowers like C. sanguinea.
> The only thing I would expect to be argued is the blazon.  I'd have to
> do a precedents dive, but I would not be surprised if some previous
> Laurel defined the flower of Cornus florida to be the default dogwood
> flower.  Wikipedia at <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornus_florida>
> says that it's "Flowering Dogwood" and it's "native to eastern North
> America".  That's the dogwood that Americans would ID as "dogwood".
> not knowing of the Common Dogwood, Cornus sanguinea,
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Dogwood>, "native to most of
> Europe and western Asia, occurring north to southern England and
> southern Scandinavia, and east to the Caspian Sea", or any of the
> other 30ish species of dogwoods and cornels that have flowers similar
> to yours.
> If Laurel did define a North American species as the heraldic default,
> then I too would think that it's whack.
>    4. Period Flora and Fauna. - Flora and fauna that were known in
>       the period and domain of the Society may be registered in
>       armory.
>       Flora and fauna documented as having been used as charges in
>       period heraldry, including crests and badges, will not be
>       considered a step from period practice. This includes New World
>       and sub-Saharan African flora and fauna.
>       The use of flora and fauna native to Europe, including coastal
>       waters, that cannot otherwise be documented as heraldic charges
>       will not be considered a step from period practice. While some
>       flora (such as roses and lilies) and fauna (such as lions and
>       dogs) are much more common than others, there is still a wide
>       practice of using a variety of flora and fauna in period
>       armory.
>       The use of flora and fauna native to the New World, Africa,
>       Asia, and other non-European locales will be registerable if it
>       is reasonable to believe that Europeans knew them in
>       period. Their use will be considered a step from period
>       practice, unless they were used as charges in period heraldry,
>       including crests and badges, in which case their use is not a
>       weirdness.
>       Consider a turkey and a manatee: they are both New World fauna,
>       but the turkey is documented as part of a crest in period
>       armory. The use of a turkey, therefore, is not a step from
>       period practice. The use of a manatee as a charge, pending
>       evidence that it was used in period armory, is a step from
>       period practice.
>       Hybrids or mutations of period forms known to have been
>       developed after 1600 generally may not be used as charges. For
>       example, the English Sheepdog may not be used in Society armory
>       because it was developed after 1600.
> Danel Lincoln
> --
> Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com
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