[ANSTHRLD] Chronological list of groups

Jay Rudin rudin at peoplepc.com
Fri Nov 6 14:22:42 PST 2009


Daniel replied to me:

>> Meanwhile, back in Ansteorra, kingdom law can and does add more
>> restrictions.

>The SCA Governing Documents say that Corpora trumps kingdom law, so
>Ansteorra cannot *contradict* Corpora.  For example, ceteris paribus,
>Ansteorra would not be allowed to rank knights above masters of arms,
>or the Chivalry about Laurels and Pelicans.  Despite various SCA
>practices that have done so, though not in Ansteorra that I've seen
>lately.

True, and if Corpora explicitly said that baronies and provinces must have equal precedence, as it does about the peers, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.  But it makes no such statement.  The specific restricting clause is "if there is any conflict among the provisions of the following types of rules".  As Corpora does not mention the order of march of baronies and provinces, there is no conflict.

>> Allowing a province at all is fairly new in Ansteorra, and they've
>> been given restrictions that don't apply to baronies, per kingdom
>> law Article VIII, Section 7.  Precedence is not mentioned, but the
>> tenor of the law is such that I would put all baronies before all
>> provinces.  Two clear facts justify this:
>> A. Nobles rank above non-nobles, and a barony is ruled by a noble.

>Nonetheless, Corpora talks about the branches being equal.  The
>personal rank or office rank of the ceremonial head doesn't come into
>it.

Corpora says that they are alike in some ways and different in others.  That is not "equal".  "They are alike in status and in the ability to administer other branches within their borders, but differ in that baronies possess a Baron and/or Baroness, ceremonial representatives appointed by the Crown, and therefore have the ability to create and administer awards, while provinces do not."  Neither of these have anything to do with what order they march in.

Note that the kingdom law specifically changes the ability to have subordinate groups, and requires more members.  Like all kingdom law, that was deemed legal when it was approved.  Kingdom law can always add more restrictions.  Kingdom Law could equally well refuse to allow baronies to have cantons, but it doesn't do so.

>> B. Baronies have armigerous Orders that outrank Comets, given to
>> province and shire members.

>By Corpora, baronies are not permitted to have armigerous awards
>either.  As you know, Rob, [1] the only way it works at all in
>Ansteorra is as a rules hacque, that the baron and baroness ask leave
>of the king and queen to bestow it.  I suspect that, if anyone were
>stupid^H^H^H^H^H moved enough to want to raise a corporate-level fuss
>about this, and if Laurel and the BoD weren't able to convincingly
>avert their eyes (in recent years they've been atypically sensible, so
>they'd want any excuse to duck it), the BoD might well forbid the
>practice, or require it to be entirely controlled by and bestowed by
>the king and queen solely.  For the sake of a number of people's
>gastric systems, I hope the issue never arises.

That's not a rules hack; it's a rule.  Baronies are not allowed to establish armigerous awards, as Principalities and Kingdoms are, but they are allowed to have them, and Corpora explicitly leaves who gives them out to kingdom law and custom.

"Only royalty and territorial Barons and Baronesses may bestow awards. If an award is established for a specific branch, only the royalty or Baronage of that branch may bestow the award, unless the power is specifically delegated in a manner consistent with Corpora and kingdom law and custom."

The last time (I know of) that this was addressed at the corporate level was when Gleann Abheann became a kingdom.  Kingdom Law is reviewed on the corporate level, and theirs specifically allows armigerous baronial orders.

By contrast, you could make the argument that the Sable Comet *is* a rules hack, since Corpora doesn't allow shire or provincial awards.  But it's a legal rules hack -- from its inception, the Comet has been a kingdom award for service to the kingdom's shires.

In any event, to declare that Corpora dictates where and how provinces march, one must first find a line in Corpora dictating where and how provinces march.

Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin


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