[ANSTHRLD] Anton de LaTour name & device

Anton De Latour delatour at ymail.com
Fri Oct 9 08:28:06 PDT 2009

I am assuming the vine is one thing too many it does have fruit (refer to my email with the PDF Attachment) and leaves more than a wavy line. Furthermore, the vine is not on the tower it is at the base spanning to its chief and dexter sides. attached is the jpeg.

From: Joe McGrew <oscagne at gmail.com>
To: heralds at lists.ansteorra.org
Sent: Fri, October 9, 2009 6:05:27 AM
Subject: Re: Anton de LaTour name & device

> From: Tim McDaniel <tmcd at panix.com>
> On Wed, 7 Oct 2009, Brian O'hUilliam <brianoftheloch at gmail.com> wrote:
>> The grapevine is on the right side of the tower, very hard to see in
>> this drawing.  It would most likely be returned for redraw.
> If it be entirely on the tower, it would, as the gentleman already
> noted, be returned for color on color.
> If it be almost entirely on the tower, it would be returned for being
> barely overall.
> If it at most partially overlay the tower, running up the dexter or
> sinister side of the tower, I can't think at the moment how it would
> be blazoned, and unblazonability is cause for return.
> There's still the rule-of-thumb complexity count.

Nobody is trying to get away with anything, here, we're simply trying
to get the submitter the device he wants.  The vine has no fruit on
it, it is essentially a tiny wavy line on the tower.  In my mind
that's a smaller artistic detail than whether the doors are open or
closed.  If leaving it out of the blazon gets his device passed, then
it can be left out of the blazon.

> From: Jay Rudin <rudin at peoplepc.com>
> He can certainly have "de la Tour", but it does not suggest a link to the Letour winery.  Changing the "a" to an "e" is not a trivial letter shift.  It actually changes the root word.
> "Tour" is a feminine word meaning "tower".  "de la Tour" means "of the Tower", and is a legitimate place name.
> But "tour" (same spelling) is a masculine noun meaning "turn" or "tour".  (It's also the root word of "tournament".)  "De le Tour" means "of the Turn" or "of the Tour".  For instance, the bike race is "le Tour de France".  It is a very different phrase.  The submittor would have to document "le Tour" or "Letour" as a pre-17th century place name, or explain convincingly how a word about travel can be used as a byname.

I believe the spelling errors crept in as my mistake in trying to find
a form that had already been passed.  The submitter says he has
documentation of the spelling he wants in a history of the winery.
The spelling that the submitter wants is "de LaTour".

> From: Tim McDaniel <tmcd at panix.com>
> (Semi-snark: vinyards use sticks to hold up grapevines.)


> In general, I am perturbed at the notion of submitting A and using B,
> especially when the causes for returning B is because B is far from
> period style.
> If the added vines are small enough to truly be tiny details, then I
> would think they'd not be a problem if submitted.
> But I'd very much like to see others' opinions.
> Daniel Lincoln

Once again, nobody is trying to get away with anything.

> From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Alasdair=20MacEogan?=" <alasdair at bmhanson.net>
> I happen to agree that if they truly are just artistic then it should be no ban on registration.  BUT if an item specifically has to be left off of the emblazon for it to be registered then I would say it is significantly more that artistic detail.

The discussion was whether to leave it off the blazon, not the emblazon.

> From: Jay Rudin <rudin at peoplepc.com>
> Exactly.  If you said, "The vines are too small to matter to anyone.  Submit this drawing, but don't mention them in the blazon because nobody cares," then they are just artistic frou-frou.

This IS the suggestion as I gathered it from replies to my original post.

>But if you said, "The vines matter a lot, because they make the design non-heraldic, by being too complicated.  Re-draw it to get it to pass, and then paint your shield with the illegal, non-heraldic picture," then you're deliberately circumventing the rules.  If you're going to counsel the client to use an unpassable non-heraldic shield, why should he pay the money to register anything at all?

This is NOT the suggestion.

> From: Maridonna <maridonna at maridonna.com>
> S.n. Tour (La) and variants don't show a place name le Tour
> or Letour in Dauzat, Albert and Rostaing, Dictionnaire
> Etymologique des Noms de Lieux de la France, 2nd ed.
> Librairie Guenegaud, p.681.
> --
> Andrea /Maridonna

Thank you.  Forwarded to the submitter.


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