[ANSTHRLD] Anton de LaTour name & device

[Alasdair MacEogan]

Joe McGrew <oscagne at gmail.com> wrote:
>  Nobody is trying to get away with anything, here, we're simply trying
>  to get the submitter the device he wants.  The vine has no fruit on
>  it, it is essentially a tiny wavy line on the tower.  In my mind
>  that's a smaller artistic detail than whether the doors are open or
>  closed.  If leaving it out of the blazon gets his device passed, then
>  it can be left out of the blazon.

Remember that the blazon is for the most part irrelevant for submissions.  What gets registered is the emblazon.  Blazons often get changed from what is sent up in the LoI by Wreath when they are registered. 

>  > From: Tim McDaniel <tmcd at panix.com>
>  > In general, I am perturbed at the notion of submitting A and using B,
>  > especially when the causes for returning B is because B is far from
>  > period style.
>  >
>  > If the added vines are small enough to truly be tiny details, then I
>  > would think they'd not be a problem if submitted.
>  >
>  > But I'd very much like to see others' opinions.
>  >
>  > Daniel Lincoln
>  
>  Once again, nobody is trying to get away with anything.
>  
>  > From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Alasdair=20MacEogan?=" <alasdair at bmhanson.net>
>  > I happen to agree that if they truly are just artistic then it should be no ban on registration.  BUT if an item specifically has to be left off of the emblazon for it to be registered then I would say it is significantly more that artistic detail.
>  
>  The discussion was whether to leave it off the blazon, not the emblazon.

But I was not specifically responding to your question or referencing the device.  I was responding to a generality that Daniel proposed which may or may not apply in this particular case.  I am not aware that anyone has made a specific point in saying that is what is trying to be done here.  I do apologize if that was the impression that I gave.  These discussions often take tangents in regards to points that may only have a peripheral relationship to the original point or question.  Unfortunately there ARE people that do as Master Daniel suggest and he was speaking out against the practice in general.  

Whether or not HE meant that this is what you were doing I have no idea, I took it to mean that the discussion had brought the idea forward in his mind and he was making a general point as a tangent to the original discussion.

>  > From: Jay Rudin <rudin at peoplepc.com>
>  > Exactly.  If you said, "The vines are too small to matter to anyone.  Submit this drawing, but don't mention them in the blazon because nobody cares," then they are just artistic frou-frou.
>  
>  This IS the suggestion as I gathered it from replies to my original post.
>  
>  >But if you said, "The vines matter a lot, because they make the design non-heraldic, by being too complicated.  Re-draw it to get it to pass, and then paint your shield with the illegal, non-heraldic picture," then you're deliberately circumventing the rules.  If you're going to counsel the client to use an unpassable non-heraldic shield, why should he pay the money to register anything at all?
>  
>  This is NOT the suggestion.
>  

Basically as you say, it is boiling down to if it is artistic detail or not.  If it is then as stated leave it off the blazon when it is submitted.  If you didn't it would get stripped by Bordure before it made its way up to Laurel.  The final decision is made by Wreath after the CoA does its commentary.  But if it is NOT artistic detail then it will likely be returned for the reasons already presented.  I am all for the idea of a test case to set a precedent in an unclear situation, but the submitter also needs to know what they are in for in that instance.  It is not a path for the faint of heart. :-D

As to if I think it is artistic detail or not, I am not sure.  It is really hard to make a determination from the image provided.  Frankly I have looked several times and still can't even see the vine you are referring to on the image. It gets lost in the shading on the tower.  Before I gave an opinion I would want to see the actual emblazon that was to be submitted.  If it were borderline I would likely advocate sending it to Laurel for a final decision.

Alasdair