[ANSTHRLD] Using Primary Sources WAS {TH}orkell {o, }lf_ss - another device attempt

Tue Aug 31 19:39:51 PDT 2010

The second part:

The Parker reference [There are two printed editions and an on-line edition] you should be referring to is under the entry 'Pierced' http://www.heraldsnet.org/saitou/parker/Jpglossp.htm#Pierced with the graphic http://www.heraldsnet.org/saitou/parker/images/m456a.gif showing "Or, chevron gules pierced with[or perforated by] a bend ermine[otherwise a bend ermine perforating a chevron gules]" -- HODSTOKE, or HADSTOCK, Suffolk

Normally Parker's undated references are post-period examples.  This is one of the exceptions.  Papworth cites "Or a chev. gu. pierced by a bend erm. [sic]" for Hodstoke in 'Glover's Ordinary, Cotton MS...1392 and 1459' ('Chevron, p 376)

I like Parker a lot, reference him frequently and encourage others to do the same.  However, like other secondary sources, I suggest using him to help blazon what others have done, not as a springboard for design.  Parker _can_ be used this way, but care must be taken to correspond the illustrations with dated examples.  Again, I suggest looking at period Rolls of Arms for design.

Unfortunately, a period example of piercing a chevron with a bend does not imply it is period _style_ to pierce a chevron with a chevron inverted.  It merely means that doing so can be blazoned using period _terms_.  There are three principal ways multiple chevrons were arranged in period: (1) Stacking http://www.heraldsnet.org/saitou/parker/images/m110c.gif (2) with a chevron issuing from a fess and a second issuing from base [not normally seen in SCA heraldry] http://www.heraldsnet.org/saitou/parker/images/m106b.gif  and (3) Braced http://www.heraldsnet.org/saitou/parker/images/m076a.gif

Piercing a chevron with a chevron inverted _may_ be period, but it also may be either a step from period pracice or non-period style,  There are SCA Precedents that state there can not be two variations of the same charge in the same charge group (aka the "Sword and Dagger Rule").  I'm not sure where a chevron and an inverted chevron would fall within this or similar rulings about banning dissimilar postures of identical charges in the same charge group.  [Magnus or Daniel?]  Barring finding an applicable precedent, "Quarterly vert and Or, a chevron couched dexter and another sinister, conjoined at the points, counterchanged." (Bjorn Bjorklund, Device, Oct 1984) indicates it may be possib le, but something with a much later registration date would have been more encouraging.

Like the eight-point mullet, chevrons "fleury at the point" occur frequently enough in period, but mostly with arms associated with France or its allies.  As before, dong so with an ermine spot or some other charge is blazonable but not necessarily good period style.

My best attempt at a blazon is "Argent, a chevron issuing an ermine spot at the point sable, pireced by a chevron inverted issuing and ermine spot at the point gules."  I have severe reseervations about period style, but no conflicts observed.

Tostig

--- On Tue, 8/31/10, Joshua Brandl <norfildur at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: Joshua Brandl <norfildur at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] {TH}orkell {o,}lf_ss - another device attempt
To: "Ansteorran Heralds List" <heralds at lists.ansteorra.org>
Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 6:47 PM

This was actually the first one i have done, i do like it.. however i was told it was. "too busy".   the chevrons idea came from one from the "glossary of terms used in heraldry" by glough and parker 1966 edition. the original blazon was  Azure, a chevron gules pierced by a bend ermine. i can provide page numbers if needed

> Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 14:29:50 -0700
> From: logiosophia at yahoo.com
> To: heralds at lists.ansteorra.org
> Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] {TH}orkell {o,}lf_ss - another device attempt
> 
> IMO the third emblazon (Quarterly sable and argent, a cross between four mullets of eight points pierced counterchanged) has the only period feel.  It also seems clear.
>  
> To see period Scandinavian concepts of good armory try looking at the articles and  Heraldic Roll found at St Gabriel http://www.s-gabriel.org/heraldry/scandinavian.shtml  Of special note is the article on "Personal Display for Viking Age Personae: A Primer for Use in the SCA" by Thora Sharptooth.  There are other collections on period Heraldry throughout Europe at St Gabriels http://www.s-gabriel.org/heraldry/ and the site maintained privately by Coblaith (Sable Crane) http://coblaith.net/Heraldry/Armorials/
>  
> Tostig
> 
> --- On Tue, 8/31/10, Joshua Brandl <norfildur at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Joshua Brandl <norfildur at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] {TH}orkell {o,}lf_ss - another device attempt
> To: heralds at lists.ansteorra.org
> Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 1:51 PM
> 
> 
> 
> Ok three more device attempts, i like them in the order presented, First best, second, third.
> please double check my blazon, i have registered examples in mundane heraldry. please and thank you
> 
> Jbrandl10
> 
> 
> First Device Blazon:
> Argent a chevron sable issuing an ermine spot tail fesspoint, pierced twice by a chevron inverted gules issuing an ermine spot tail fesspoint.
> 
> First Device Image:
> http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll227/aednial/chevronsablepiercedbychevrongules.gif
> 
> Second Device Blazon:
> Argent, an annulet sable ensigned with a cross, interlaced by a saltorel gules conjoined in the base
> 
> Second Device Image:
> http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll227/aednial/AnnuletInterlaced.gif
> 
> 
> Third Device Blazon:
> Quarterly sable and argent between four mullets of eight points pierced a cross counterchanged
> 
> Third Device Image:
> http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll227/aednial/Quarterly.gif
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>                           
> _______________________________________________
> Heralds mailing list
> Heralds at lists.ansteorra.org
> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/heralds-ansteorra.org
> 
> 
> 
>       
> _______________________________________________
> Heralds mailing list
> Heralds at lists.ansteorra.org
> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/heralds-ansteorra.org

_______________________________________________
Heralds mailing list
Heralds at lists.ansteorra.org
http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/heralds-ansteorra.org