[ANSTHRLD] Questions

[Bob Wade]

You might also want to bookmark the SCA College of Heralds 'Glossary of Terms' at http://heraldry.sca.org/coagloss.html
 
The answer to your initial question are under the definitions:
 
Charge Group.
"A set of charges used together in a design as a single unit. The charges in groups in heraldry usually fall into standard arrangements depending on their number and what other items are involved in the design. A collection of charges that are arranged in such a standard arrangement are considered a single group, even if they are of different types and/or tinctures. For example, Per fess argent and gules, two towers sable and a roundel argent contains a single group of primary charges in the standard charge arrangement of two and one. See also Peripheral Charge Group, Primary Charge Group, Secondary Charge Group, Slot Machine Heraldry, and Tertiary Charge Group."
 
Secondary Charge Group.
"A group of charges on the field around the primary charge group. A design may have more than one secondary charge group. Each group may confer difference independently. In Gules, a pale between two mullets argent, the mullets are the secondary charge group. The secondary charges in Or, a maunche between three roundels azure are the roundels. In Sable, a chevron cotised argent between three millrinds Or there are two secondary charge groups, the cotises and the millrinds. In Per chevron argent and sable, two roses and a fleur-de-lys counterchanged and on a chief purpure three hearts argent, the chief is the secondary charge group. A peripheral charge group is a type of secondary charge group. See also Charge Group, Peripheral Charge Group, Primary Charge Group, Semy, Tertiary Charge Group."
 
In Katka's case, there are either two or three charge groups, depending on how it's blazoned.  In both "Azure, two scarpes between a fox courant contourny and a garb Or." and "Azure, on a bend sinister between a fox courant contourny and a garb Or, a scarpe azure." the fox and garb are two charge types forming a single secondary charge group.  Thus, there is only 1 CD for changes to the types of charges in it under the Rules for Submission http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/rfs.html
 
X.4e. Type Changes - "Significantly changing the type of any group of charges placed directly on the field, including strewn charges or charges overall, is one clear difference.
Changing the type of at least half of the charges in a group is one clear difference. Types of charges considered to be separate in period, for example a lion and an heraldic tyger, will be considered different. A charge not used in period armory will be considered different in type if its shape in normal depiction is significantly different. This means a lion would not be clearly different from a puma. Separate differences may be obtained from changing the types of charges in different charge groups. Changing Vert, a pale between two lions argent and a chief Or to Vert, a fess between two horses argent and a chief Or produces two separate differences. Since the edge partition line of a charge is part of its type, the change from a pale wavy to a pale embattled is one clear difference. Changing from a pale wavy to a fess embattled is also one change of type, not a change of type plus a change of edge partition."
 
What Ansteorra CoH Commentary missed (myself included), but SCA CoA Commentary didn't, was that the primry charge group in Kata's submission could be viewed in two different ways.  The CoH saw it only as two Or bendlets sinister.  The CoA saw it also as a single Or bend with an azure teritary charge upon it.  Both views are reasonable so both blazons are valid.
 
Tostig

--- On Fri, 2/19/10, doug bell <magnus77840 at hotmail.com> wrote:


From: doug bell <magnus77840 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] Questions
To: heralds at lists.ansteorra.org
Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 5:58 PM



Try these for tracking where a submission is
by name or LoI at Laurel.

http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=101
http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=181

This works within Ansteorra
http://heraldry.ansteorra.org/hst/

I used to teach a class for online conflict checking.
Let me know privately what you want the Complex Search Form
to do and I can tell you how to do it (or if it will do it).

Normally for Kata's device the two scarpes would be the primary
charge group and the fox and garb would be the secondary 
charge group.  That particular piece of armory has some weird 
properties that allow it to be blazoned more than one way.
Thankfully such items are quite rare.

Magnus 

> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 14:45:51 -0800
> From: charlescalhoun at sbcglobal.net
> To: heralds at lists.ansteorra.org
> Subject: [ANSTHRLD] Questions
> 
> Will someone please give me some instructions. I thought that the Fox and the Garb were separate charges and not a charge group; what's the difference?
> 
> 
> Kata Timkin.  Device. Azure, two scarpes between a fox courant contourny and a garb Or. The SCA considers a conflict found under any valid blazon to be a valid conflict. This device can also be blazoned Azure, on a bend sinister between a fox courant contourny and a garb Or, a scarpe azure.
> Since this submission has three types of charge on the field, RfS
> X.4.j.ii doesn't apply here: type alone of tertiary charge counts for
> no difference.Therefore, this conflicts with the device of Angus Duncan Cameron, Azure, on a bend sinister between two bells Or a claymore azure; and with the device of Blaise de Saint Thibaut, Azure, on a bend sinister between two goblets Or, an arrow inverted azure.
> In each case there's a CD for changing the type of the secondary charge
> group, but changing only the type of the tertiary charge group is not
> worth a second CD.
> Is there some way I can ge some instruction on using the online complex search forms for the OandA?
> How do I get to the Laurel web page or am I even allowed to go there since I am only a Branch Herald? In order to track submission from my group.
> 
> Sean (formally spelled Shawn)  
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Heralds mailing list
> Heralds at lists.ansteorra.org
> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/heralds-ansteorra.org
                          
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/
_______________________________________________
Heralds mailing list
Heralds at lists.ansteorra.org
http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/heralds-ansteorra.org