[ANSTHRLD] Woulfe - Irish Names & Surnames

[Kathleen O'Brien]

Hi!

The book we see most often by Woulfe is a compilation of two works of 
his, one on given names and one on surnames.

The given name section is so full of modern forms that it's basically 
useless for our purposes.  There are a few entries that are useful in 
that section, but they are rare.  This entry looks like it comes from 
that section.  However, it does assert that it's the name of a saint.  
So, you may be okay.  (see further down this message)

The surname section is very useful for our purposes; not perfect, but 
then nothing is.  In that section, the Gaelic surname forms mostly date 
from Woulfe's period (c 1900) but the vast majority are also appropriate 
for late period.  (I can think of two that have found to be wrong so far 
- out of hundreds in that section)  In the subheaders, the italicized 
Anglicized Irish forms come from the Fiants of Elizabeth or the Patent 
Rolls of James I.  So, the subheaders in italics are documented for 
temp. Elizabeth I - James I in Anglicized Irish.  The subheaders that 
are in regular font (not italicized) are not dated to period.

Now, back to Caoimhe...

Yep.  I just checked, it's in Woulfe's given names section.

OCM is indexed by early spellings, and an earlier form of <Caoimhe> 
would start out <C{a'}em-> but I'm not seeing a name that would become 
<Caoimhe> later.

Here we go.  The Martyrology of Gorman list this saint.  This source is 
online at Google books - just search on the title.  Martyrology of 
Gorman is so unusual, it should just come up.  Anyway, the first 
paragraph of the preface describes this source, that it "...was composed 
in the latter part of the twelfth century by an Irish abbot, and is 
contained in a single manuscript transcribed in or about the year 1630 
by one of the Four Masters, Michael O'Clery..."

So, if someone wants the name of a saint, then this source is good to 
show that the saint was still known around the year 1630.  However, the 
exact spellings found here are often in oblique cases and are all Middle 
Irish because they don't seem to have been updated when the original 
work was copied into this source aroudn 1630.  So, just because you find 
a spelling in the text does not mean that spelling is registerable as a 
given name.

In general, the Martyrology of Gorman is useful for research, but I sure 
as heck would not put it in front of a submitter to pick out a name from 
- simply  because of all the issues with interpreting the info in it.

Anyway, the Martyrology of Gorman has in its index (p. 343) a listing:

C{o'}eme, virg. of Cell Ch{o'}eme, Ap. 4, Nov. 2.  Spelt Coema at Ap. 4, 
and at Ap. 4 Mart. Taml. has C{o'}ine Cille C{o'}ine.

Looking in the text, November 2nd is on p. 210.  There it lists the 
saint's name as <Coemhi>, but it's in a context that is a non-nominative 
case.  It's worth noting that a footnote indicates the saint was Scottish.

So, we know that the saint was known in period (which supports Woulfe's 
statement).  We know that the Middle Irish (c900-c1200) form of her name 
was something like <C{o'}eme>, and that she was at least known as late 
as around 1630.  Given this info, it's reasonable that an Early Modern 
Irish form of her name would have been used to refer to her in late 
period. <Caoimhe> looks about like what I would expect as an EMIr form 
of <C{o'}eme>, but I can't be absolutely 100% sure.

If the submitter likes this name, it's probably registerable under the 
guidelines for use of a saint's name, but it would have to get discussed 
in commentary to see what issues are found.

If the submitter wants to be authentic, then a saint's name is not the 
way to go in Irish - they considered saint's names too holy to give to 
their kids in period.  (Though that practice stopped long ago, though 
after period, as the names of bunches of my Irish Catholic ancestors can 
attest to...)

Hope this helps,

Mari





On 7/28/2010 9:30 PM, Kihe Blackeagle wrote:
> Far better to find a source that *IS* dated - and a form that is more likely not normalized to a more modern spelling.  (In the middle of trying to resolve major system issues or I would look up the - relatively recent - Pelican Sovereign ruling on Woulfe...)
>
>
> Amra - curmudgeon-in-training
>
>
> ttfn - Mike / Pax ... Kihe / Adieu, Amra
>
> Mike C. Baker / Kihe Blackeagle
> Opinions? I'm FULL of 'em
> SCA: al-Sayyid Amr ibn Majid al-Bakri al-Amra, F.O.B, OSCA
> "Other": Reverend Kihe Blackeagle PULC (the DreamSinger Bard)
> alt. e-mail: KiheBard at hotmail.com
> Buy my writings!: http://www.lulu.com/WizardsDen
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>
>    
>> From: jpercer at gmail.com
>> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 20:51:52 -0500
>> To: heralds at lists.ansteorra.org
>> Subject: [ANSTHRLD] Woulfe - Irish Names&  Surnames
>>
>> Greetings,
>>
>> Question on names in Woulfe, specifically names written in Gaelic - but no
>> date given - what's the word on these names being "period"?
>>
>> The name being looked at specifically:
>>
>> sn<Caoimhe>  pg 208 "an Irish name, signifying gentleness, beauty, grace,
>> courtesy, borne by a Scoto-Irish saint whose feast-day is 2 Nov. Lat
>> Pulcheria.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jayme
>> -- 
>> Joseph M. Percer, AAS, LP 		 	   		
>>      
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