[ANSTHRLD] Woulfe - Irish Names & Surnames

Wed Jul 28 22:55:36 PDT 2010

It helps quite a bit. Having been out of reach of any sort of heraldic
library for a while has left me remembering which sources are the best for
which element and language. Also seawinds' copy of oc&m seems to be AWOL at
the moment. Thanks for taking the time to look this up for me.

Jayme

On Jul 29, 2010 12:49 AM, "Kathleen O'Brien" <mari_1184 at att.net> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> The book we see most often by Woulfe is a compilation of two works of
> his, one on given names and one on surnames.
>
> The given name section is so full of modern forms that it's basically
> useless for our purposes. There are a few entries that are useful in
> that section, but they are rare. This entry looks like it comes from
> that section. However, it does assert that it's the name of a saint.
> So, you may be okay. (see further down this message)
>
> The surname section is very useful for our purposes; not perfect, but
> then nothing is. In that section, the Gaelic surname forms mostly date
> from Woulfe's period (c 1900) but the vast majority are also appropriate
> for late period. (I can think of two that have found to be wrong so far
> - out of hundreds in that section) In the subheaders, the italicized
> Anglicized Irish forms come from the Fiants of Elizabeth or the Patent
> Rolls of James I. So, the subheaders in italics are documented for
> temp. Elizabeth I - James I in Anglicized Irish. The subheaders that
> are in regular font (not italicized) are not dated to period.
>
> Now, back to Caoimhe...
>
> Yep. I just checked, it's in Woulfe's given names section.
>
> OCM is indexed by early spellings, and an earlier form of <Caoimhe>
> would start out <C{a'}em-> but I'm not seeing a name that would become
> <Caoimhe> later.
>
> Here we go. The Martyrology of Gorman list this saint. This source is
> online at Google books - just search on the title. Martyrology of
> Gorman is so unusual, it should just come up. Anyway, the first
> paragraph of the preface describes this source, that it "...was composed
> in the latter part of the twelfth century by an Irish abbot, and is
> contained in a single manuscript transcribed in or about the year 1630
> by one of the Four Masters, Michael O'Clery..."
>
> So, if someone wants the name of a saint, then this source is good to
> show that the saint was still known around the year 1630. However, the
> exact spellings found here are often in oblique cases and are all Middle
> Irish because they don't seem to have been updated when the original
> work was copied into this source aroudn 1630. So, just because you find
> a spelling in the text does not mean that spelling is registerable as a
> given name.
>
> In general, the Martyrology of Gorman is useful for research, but I sure
> as heck would not put it in front of a submitter to pick out a name from
> - simply because of all the issues with interpreting the info in it.
>
> Anyway, the Martyrology of Gorman has in its index (p. 343) a listing:
>
> C{o'}eme, virg. of Cell Ch{o'}eme, Ap. 4, Nov. 2. Spelt Coema at Ap. 4,
> and at Ap. 4 Mart. Taml. has C{o'}ine Cille C{o'}ine.
>
> Looking in the text, November 2nd is on p. 210. There it lists the
> saint's name as <Coemhi>, but it's in a context that is a non-nominative
> case. It's worth noting that a footnote indicates the saint was Scottish.
>
> So, we know that the saint was known in period (which supports Woulfe's
> statement). We know that the Middle Irish (c900-c1200) form of her name
> was something like <C{o'}eme>, and that she was at least known as late
> as around 1630. Given this info, it's reasonable that an Early Modern
> Irish form of her name would have been used to refer to her in late
> period. <Caoimhe> looks about like what I would expect as an EMIr form
> of <C{o'}eme>, but I can't be absolutely 100% sure.
>
> If the submitter likes this name, it's probably registerable under the
> guidelines for use of a saint's name, but it would have to get discussed
> in commentary to see what issues are found.
>
> If the submitter wants to be authentic, then a saint's name is not the
> way to go in Irish - they considered saint's names too holy to give to
> their kids in period. (Though that practice stopped long ago, though
> after period, as the names of bunches of my Irish Catholic ancestors can
> attest to...)
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Mari
>
>
>
>
>
> On 7/28/2010 9:30 PM, Kihe Blackeagle wrote:
>> Far better to find a source that *IS* dated - and a form that is more
likely not normalized to a more modern spelling. (In the middle of trying to
resolve major system issues or I would look up the - relatively recent -
Pelican Sovereign ruling on Woulfe...)
>>
>>
>> Amra - curmudgeon-in-training
>>
>>
>> ttfn - Mike / Pax ... Kihe / Adieu, Amra
>>
>> Mike C. Baker / Kihe Blackeagle
>> Opinions? I'm FULL of 'em
>> SCA: al-Sayyid Amr ibn Majid al-Bakri al-Amra, F.O.B, OSCA
>> "Other": Reverend Kihe Blackeagle PULC (the DreamSinger Bard)
>> alt. e-mail: KiheBard at hotmail.com
>> Buy my writings!: http://www.lulu.com/WizardsDen
>> http://www.livejournal.com/users/kihebard/
>>
>>
>>> From: jpercer at gmail.com
>>> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 20:51:52 -0500
>>> To: heralds at lists.ansteorra.org
>>> Subject: [ANSTHRLD] Woulfe - Irish Names& Surnames
>>>
>>> Greetings,
>>>
>>> Question on names in Woulfe, specifically names written in Gaelic - but
no
>>> date given - what's the word on these names being "period"?
>>>
>>> The name being looked at specifically:
>>>
>>> sn<Caoimhe> pg 208 "an Irish name, signifying gentleness, beauty, grace,
>>> courtesy, borne by a Scoto-Irish saint whose feast-day is 2 Nov. Lat
>>> Pulcheria.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Jayme
>>> --
>>> Joseph M. Percer, AAS, LP
>>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your
inbox.
>>
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3
>> _______________________________________________
>> Heralds mailing list
>> Heralds at lists.ansteorra.org
>> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/heralds-ansteorra.org
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Heralds mailing list
> Heralds at lists.ansteorra.org
> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/heralds-ansteorra.org