[ANSTHRLD] Woulfe - Irish Names & Surnames

Wed Jul 28 23:29:33 PDT 2010

Thanks for the list. I've found a few copies of ocm on Amazon for cheap so I
may buy a copy for myself and another for the group.

On Jul 29, 2010 1:27 AM, "Kathleen O'Brien" <mari_1184 at att.net> wrote:
> I'm sorry to hear that on the Seawinds copy of OCM. I don't know what I
> would do without my copy. Probably go into withdrawl...
>
> FYI, for folks who are not aware, googlebooks has a number of the older
> standard sources we use, though in some cases they are older editions.
>
> Here's some:
>
> Bardsley (1901 edition)
> http://books.google.com/books?id=RbkEAAAAIAAJ
>
> Johnston, _Place-Names of Scotland_ (2nd ed., 1903) [3rd edition is the
> most recent.]
> http://books.google.com/books?id=J58zIGlBgs4C
>
> Johnston also did another book:
> Johnston, _The Place-Names of England and Wales_ (1916 ed.)
> http://books.google.com/books?id=wxtAAAAAYAAJ
>
> Searle
> http://books.google.com/books?id=RLkEAAAAIAAJ
>
> and the 1837 printed volume of the 1292 census of Paris is at:
> http://books.google.com/books?id=YTwDAAAAYAAJ
>
> There are some others but I can't remember what they are right now.
>
> Also, avoid the copy of Woulfe on Google books. It's the first edition
> and is tiny (both in quality and quantity) compared to his later,
> updated edition.
>
> Enjoy!
>
> Mari
>
>
> On 7/29/2010 12:55 AM, Joseph Percer wrote:
>> It helps quite a bit. Having been out of reach of any sort of heraldic
>> library for a while has left me remembering which sources are the best
for
>> which element and language. Also seawinds' copy of oc&m seems to be AWOL
at
>> the moment. Thanks for taking the time to look this up for me.
>>
>> Jayme
>>
>> On Jul 29, 2010 12:49 AM, "Kathleen O'Brien"<mari_1184 at att.net>
wrote:
>>
>>> Hi!
>>>
>>> The book we see most often by Woulfe is a compilation of two works of
>>> his, one on given names and one on surnames.
>>>
>>> The given name section is so full of modern forms that it's basically
>>> useless for our purposes. There are a few entries that are useful in
>>> that section, but they are rare. This entry looks like it comes from
>>> that section. However, it does assert that it's the name of a saint.
>>> So, you may be okay. (see further down this message)
>>>
>>> The surname section is very useful for our purposes; not perfect, but
>>> then nothing is. In that section, the Gaelic surname forms mostly date
>>> from Woulfe's period (c 1900) but the vast majority are also appropriate
>>> for late period. (I can think of two that have found to be wrong so far
>>> - out of hundreds in that section) In the subheaders, the italicized
>>> Anglicized Irish forms come from the Fiants of Elizabeth or the Patent
>>> Rolls of James I. So, the subheaders in italics are documented for
>>> temp. Elizabeth I - James I in Anglicized Irish. The subheaders that
>>> are in regular font (not italicized) are not dated to period.
>>>
>>> Now, back to Caoimhe...
>>>
>>> Yep. I just checked, it's in Woulfe's given names section.
>>>
>>> OCM is indexed by early spellings, and an earlier form of<Caoimhe>
>>> would start out<C{a'}em-> but I'm not seeing a name that would become
>>> <Caoimhe> later.
>>>
>>> Here we go. The Martyrology of Gorman list this saint. This source is
>>> online at Google books - just search on the title. Martyrology of
>>> Gorman is so unusual, it should just come up. Anyway, the first
>>> paragraph of the preface describes this source, that it "...was composed
>>> in the latter part of the twelfth century by an Irish abbot, and is
>>> contained in a single manuscript transcribed in or about the year 1630
>>> by one of the Four Masters, Michael O'Clery..."
>>>
>>> So, if someone wants the name of a saint, then this source is good to
>>> show that the saint was still known around the year 1630. However, the
>>> exact spellings found here are often in oblique cases and are all Middle
>>> Irish because they don't seem to have been updated when the original
>>> work was copied into this source aroudn 1630. So, just because you find
>>> a spelling in the text does not mean that spelling is registerable as a
>>> given name.
>>>
>>> In general, the Martyrology of Gorman is useful for research, but I sure
>>> as heck would not put it in front of a submitter to pick out a name from
>>> - simply because of all the issues with interpreting the info in it.
>>>
>>> Anyway, the Martyrology of Gorman has in its index (p. 343) a listing:
>>>
>>> C{o'}eme, virg. of Cell Ch{o'}eme, Ap. 4, Nov. 2. Spelt Coema at Ap. 4,
>>> and at Ap. 4 Mart. Taml. has C{o'}ine Cille C{o'}ine.
>>>
>>> Looking in the text, November 2nd is on p. 210. There it lists the
>>> saint's name as<Coemhi>, but it's in a context that is a non-nominative
>>> case. It's worth noting that a footnote indicates the saint was
Scottish.
>>>
>>> So, we know that the saint was known in period (which supports Woulfe's
>>> statement). We know that the Middle Irish (c900-c1200) form of her name
>>> was something like<C{o'}eme>, and that she was at least known as late
>>> as around 1630. Given this info, it's reasonable that an Early Modern
>>> Irish form of her name would have been used to refer to her in late
>>> period.<Caoimhe> looks about like what I would expect as an EMIr form
>>> of<C{o'}eme>, but I can't be absolutely 100% sure.
>>>
>>> If the submitter likes this name, it's probably registerable under the
>>> guidelines for use of a saint's name, but it would have to get discussed
>>> in commentary to see what issues are found.
>>>
>>> If the submitter wants to be authentic, then a saint's name is not the
>>> way to go in Irish - they considered saint's names too holy to give to
>>> their kids in period. (Though that practice stopped long ago, though
>>> after period, as the names of bunches of my Irish Catholic ancestors can
>>> attest to...)
>>>
>>> Hope this helps,
>>>
>>> Mari
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7/28/2010 9:30 PM, Kihe Blackeagle wrote:
>>>
>>>> Far better to find a source that *IS* dated - and a form that is more
>>>>
>> likely not normalized to a more modern spelling. (In the middle of trying
to
>> resolve major system issues or I would look up the - relatively recent -
>> Pelican Sovereign ruling on Woulfe...)
>>
>>>> Amra - curmudgeon-in-training
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ttfn - Mike / Pax ... Kihe / Adieu, Amra
>>>>
>>>> Mike C. Baker / Kihe Blackeagle
>>>> Opinions? I'm FULL of 'em
>>>> SCA: al-Sayyid Amr ibn Majid al-Bakri al-Amra, F.O.B, OSCA
>>>> "Other": Reverend Kihe Blackeagle PULC (the DreamSinger Bard)
>>>> alt. e-mail: KiheBard at hotmail.com
>>>> Buy my writings!: http://www.lulu.com/WizardsDen
>>>> http://www.livejournal.com/users/kihebard/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> From: jpercer at gmail.com
>>>>> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 20:51:52 -0500
>>>>> To: heralds at lists.ansteorra.org
>>>>> Subject: [ANSTHRLD] Woulfe - Irish Names& Surnames
>>>>>
>>>>> Greetings,
>>>>>
>>>>> Question on names in Woulfe, specifically names written in Gaelic -
but
>>>>>
>> no
>>
>>>>> date given - what's the word on these names being "period"?
>>>>>
>>>>> The name being looked at specifically:
>>>>>
>>>>> sn<Caoimhe> pg 208 "an Irish name, signifying gentleness, beauty,
grace,
>>>>> courtesy, borne by a Scoto-Irish saint whose feast-day is 2 Nov. Lat
>>>>> Pulcheria.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Jayme
>>>>> --
>>>>> Joseph M. Percer, AAS, LP
>>>>>
>>>>>
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