[ANSTHRLD] Name Construction Check - Katerinka Lilieva Ikonnikova
magnus77840 at hotmail.com
Fri May 20 11:39:21 PDT 2011
I find your critique of Paul Wickenden of Thanet quite disrespectful.
He is a friend and has worked tirelessly for years on SCA research to deserve
> From: lisatheriot at ravenboymusic.com
> To: heralds at lists.ansteorra.org
> Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 12:33:08 -0500
> Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] Name Construction Check - Katerinka Lilieva Ikonnikova
> [Katerinka Lilieva Ikonnikova.]
> This name has several problems.
> You are correct in your suspicion that the order should be <given
> name><patronymic><family name>, so there's problem #1.
> I still hate registering diminutives, especially in Russian, but that
> ship has, alas, sailed.
> Please be aware that though finding a name in one of Paul's articles is
> a good start, it is by no means an automatic okay. Looking at
> Ikonnikov, it is one of many items in Paul's Dictionary that are suspect
> in the extreme. If you found a citation in an English legal document
> for <Painter Jones> in 1602 you wouldn't think <Painter> was his first
> name, but that some Mr. Jones who was paid to paint something was
> entered into record by someone who didn't know Mr. Jones' first name.
> There being no pattern of "occupational names as given names" in
> Russian, I suspect that this entry is bogus. I would not, on the other
> hand, bet my last ruble against a record of "Katherine, daughter of
> Painter Jones," so I would grumble less over Ekaterina Ikonnikova <valid
> family name>. It's still nothing like an actual name, but it's at least
> a plausible description.
> Lilieva is also fraught. Paul mentions in his article that he read
> Unbegaun's discussions of botanical names (on pages 191-195 and pg.
> 225), but does not report what Unbegaun says, namely that the pattern of
> botanical names extends only to food and medicinal plants. Flower names
> (pp. 193, 225) are found used exclusively by clergy (presumably for
> their symbolic meanings), and Liliev is one such name (actually,
> Unbegaun cites <Lile/ev>). It is therefore virtually impossible that
> Liliev is a period Russian family name (there were married clergy, but
> they were expected to remain celibate after ordination, married or not).
> Liliev IS an occasional modern Russian surname; the influx of cultures
> (post-period) which used flower names (Estonian, Armenian) has caused it
> to enter the naming pool.
> There might be another option for your submitter. Paul shows <Lil'ana>
> as a masculine given name dated to 1470, which by the customary rules
> should produce a patronymic <Lil'anin>. I find that only in Bulgarian.
> On the other hand, <Lilyanov> is a not uncommon modern Russian surname,
> which leads me to surmise that <Lil'ana> was a diminutive form (or
> genitive form, or...) of an underlying <Lil'an>, which would produce a
> patronymic <Lil'anov> with the expected substitution of <y> for the soft
> sign. I think <(E)Katerin(k)a Lilyanova> involves far less speculation
> than what you currently have, and it might make your submitter happy.
> Her daddy can still paint icons for a living; it doesn't have to be in
> her name to be in her persona story!
> (Just to avoid the horrid English-speaker "ova" disease, the submitter
> should pronounce that leel-YAN-oh-va, with the emphasis on the second
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