[ANSTHRLD] Conflict question - Septfoil?

[Tim McDaniel]

On Fri, 17 Aug 2012, Bob Wade <logiosophia at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Versus "Argent, a septfoil gules." consider "Argent, a carnation
> gules, slipped and leaved vert, surmounted by a rosewood recorder
> proper." (Amelliana die Weisse aus Siena, Device, August of 1982)

Flowers are affronty by default, right?  I have the archives here ...
This one is a carnation seen in profile with a large slipping and
leaving curving downward (that's not a DC, though) and the recorder
palewise overall.  Maybe complete difference under
http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/sena.html#A5E5 , Change of Posture of
the Primary Charge Group, but even if not, clear by two DCs.

> and "Argent, a red camellia proper within a bordure of red camellias
> slipped and leaved proper." (Matriana du Cameliard, Device, June
> 1975).  For the first I only see 1 DC for removal of the overall
> charge and for the second I only see 1 DC for removal of the
> peripheral charge group.

I put the image at
http://www.panix.com/~tmcd/heraldry/Matriana_du_Cameliard.jpg Hrm.
Looking at the image, I see flower - single slip extending to next
flower - flower - slip - ...  Is it a wreath or are they N flowers
conjoined by their stems?  Oddly, www.morsulus.org doesn't show any
conflict calls that mention it!  Searching my hard drive, it's
certainly never been mentioned in the last 22 years.  Anyway, that
flower is affronty, so I see no DCs there, and the secondary/ies,
whether 1 or N, still give only one DC for the addition/removal of the
group.  I see a conflict.

> I'm unsure if Matriana also causes a conflict with "Argent, a
> septfoil and a bordure gules." and/or "Argent, a septfoil and an
> orle gules". .. I suspect it might be only worth 1 DC for multiple
> changes to the peripheral.

... Under SENA, multiple changes to a *tertiary* are separate DCs.
Certainly multiple changes to a peripheral secondary are separate
DCs.  But if Matriana's secondary is a wreath, 1 DC for change of type
only.  (Unless the non-flower parts of a wreath count for tincture.)

> If so, I think there _would_ be 2 DC's versus Matriana for change to
> both type and number versus "Argent, a septifoil within a double
> tressure gules."  (This would also eliminate any questions versus
> "Argent, a rose proper, a bordure gules semy-de-lys argent."
> (Roseline d'Anjou, Device, November 1998) and "Gyronny sable and
> argent, a rose within an orle gules." (Elspeth Cameron, Device,
> August 1986) when considering cinquefoils/roses.)

Or the badge of the House of Lancaster.

Or go for two, three, or four-or-more flowers.  Change of Number of
the Primary Charge Group clears all those categories.

"Argent, in bend two septfoils gules and in bend sinister two more
sable"?  That's a design motif I've tried to push, hitherto without
success.

Dammit Delinquent
-- 
Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com