PE - Spoked wheel design Oh! boy here we go! :)

[Cherie Nolan]

   Well sorry I push your buttons it was not my intend to do so. I know that you may have studied a lot about this area. I have study a lot on the fields of cloth of gold.
The tents in the illustrations was so big that it the ropes may not have been seen from that far a distance in order to have to paint them. If we was going off of the
artist painting and the research of the length of the encampment. My lord (a civil and EM engineer) the average size of the tent with the nine rounds to eight rectangles.
The rounds alone was 30 foot wide. The length of the whole circle encampment was 12,000 square yards long. So distance of the artist in order to paint the encampment and
the rest of the land. Could have been the cause of the no ropes as in all pictures. In other illustrations, some ropes could have been ticker and could have been seen; and
some made thinner and could not be seen by the artist. This could have been the reason for some tents having ropes and some not.
Therefore causing them not to be painted in the illustrations. Remember they was painting a whole encampment and of battles. The artist making sure which if the painting
had ropes on a tent or someone being killed was the important thing to be painting. It lay in the eye of the artist. 
    But you have a lot of people on the list who, one does not know the pros and cons of tent making. Two we do not know if this was an artist rendition of the no ropes
thing. So to say it was factual based on the illustrations is a hard thing to prove. The artist of the time was not actual. But it is unfortunate that the illustrations is
the one of the few things we have to go on. The clean and sharp roof lines could have been an artist rendition or the hoop design. As well as, No ropes could have been and
artist rendition. The roof could have been sagging and not clean edged as they painted them. But the eyes on the soldiers of illustrations is not right either. We normally
don't have eyes the same size as our heads. If it was drawn in, then we know it existed; but if not then we cannot be sure. We wasn't there and do not know. There has been
tents of that era that has survived and we have wooden items that have survived as well. Yet no wooden structure of this nature has been found to proof this point. Only
peculation from pictures that may have been an artist again rendition, or what some may feel to be the spoke wheel design. true they may have all have been rotten and there
is nothing left of them. This is not proven nor is it documentable and nor could it be disprove too. Don't get me wrong. I think the design is wonderful and beautiful. I
actually am thinking about making one for myself. However I will be making sure that it is safe with ropes from the top of the center pin, which was documentable. 
Next point 14 inch stakes may work in your neck of the woods dear Lord. But people in my area have a lot of lose and sandy soils. Plus thick clay mud, if wet will only turn
to mush not holding the stakes very well no madder how long you make the stakes. Plus we are in tornado alley. At Lilies war it is not unknown for a tornado to come
thought. We have a tornado two months ago at an event in Canton not long ago. So the weather and soil is a big factor in this part of the woods. Plus heavy down pours gulf
wars two events ago. You have new people not knowing the difference and yes we are hear to teach. So what is wrong with a little word of wise, to warn them of the dangers
if they do not know the possibilities. There is a lot of tent illustrations the has the three or four ropes on the top of the center pin. Would it not be safer to make sure
we camp if safety in all grounds and areas then to be sorry that someone had gotten hurt. I would rather be one who teaches safety and then let the individual go and be
aware of the risk with different grounds and the risk that one tent can bring. Then to sit back and let them go on there way and have someone get hurt. Plus a good many of
the people on the list is my people from my kingdom, I know and care about if anyone of them was hurt it would really be up set if I had not told them of the warnings the
different grounds could bring. 
I for one am making two people the tents for spoke wheel designs. It is there choice and do not fault them for it and will support them in it. But I will tell them the risk
with it each and every time. Sorry, that we have different views. But I really don't want someone to be hurt or mislead. 
Please don't be angry with me, just thinking about others and safety. Hope to talk to you someday about things we agree on. Besides it is always good to heard multi views
on the subjects, and love hearing other views on the matter. It challenges the mind, plus having others state there side is enlightening. Truth is a matter of views.
Someone thinks they are right and someone thinks they are wrong. It is for those who reads to find the truth in there own hearts and there own studies and teach those their
view on the subject. We don't need to be wright or wrong it is a new view to be looked at and challage and studied. We may all be wrong, and a new view can spark a new area
of study. Thank you for your views good lord I hope to see you one day and share a nice drink and talk more.

Marguerite the meek and smiling.
Crawling in the hole now waiting to be hit again. Who just wants to be next to join the fun. :->. 




"Barclay, Peter C. MAJ" wrote:
> 
> Greetings from Master Terafan,
> 
>         Lady Marguerite has unknowingly punched one of my hot buttons.... IF
> you don't want to read a long note about tents, then stop now and delete it.
> 
> First off, I have no problem with ropes.  My issue is not about ropes, and I
> have those good pictures about the "high wind wire" attachment points on the
> roof caps of the tent in Basel.   Just because I don't use ropes on my
> pavilino doesn't mean they are not a good idea.  I simply have stakes that
> go 14 or so inches into the ground, and I have withstood some very heavy
> winds and rains without a problem.
> 
> My real issue is Marguerite's comment that spoke wheel design tents are not
> period:
> 
> >The spoke wheel design is not yet proven to be documentable. If any one has
> documentation please let us know where it is >we have been trying to get
> real documentation for a long time but you have to see the actual frame.
> They look great they >are very nice looking but they are not period.
> 
> While she is correct in that we currently have no clear, positive proof of
> the *design* of the inner structure, we have obvious clear proof (by
> inference) of some sort of interior structure.   Now, why do I say this?
> 
> 1) Many period paintings have NO ropes on the tents, even by people who put
> ropes on the tents in many of their paintings.  Look at the paintings of
> Jean Froissart, Chronicles in the Bibliothèque Nationale de France,
> http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/aaccueil.htm.  Many of these have ropes and
> many do not.  In particular, look at the following images:
> - Charles of Blois, duke of Brittany, besieging Hennebont (1342). (BNF, FR
> 2643)
> - Charles of Blois, duke of Brittany, is taken prisoner at the Battle of La
> Roche-Derrien (1347). (BNF, FR 2643)
> - Edward III of England besieging Reims (1359/60) (BNF, FR 2643)
> - Battle of Cassel: the French combat the Flemish (1328). (BNF, FR 2643)
> 
> In the Hennebont painting, the red tent in the background appears to ropes
> (look at the right most crow's foot, it appears to be going off the edge),
> yet the white tent seems to definitely NOT have ropes.  How would it have
> this shape without some interior structure?
> 
> I am interested in the explanation for the tent that is collapsing (in La
> Roche-Derrien painting).  How could it possibly be collapsing as indicated
> and still retain that conical top if it did not have *some kind* of interior
> structure?
> 
> In the Edward III picture, there is no way the tent in the foreground could
> have the shape and structure using only the ropes and angles indicated.
> 
> The front tent in the Cassel picture is similar.  We can see "into" the tent
> but there are no perimeter poles, and the ropes indicated would not give it
> that shape and structure.
> 
> 2) I have put some other pictures on the web, including one from the Cloth
> of the Field of Gold, a German woodcut from 1520, a drawing from around
> 1360, and a 14th century French painting from the Bibliotheque Nationale in
> Paris.  http://www.greydragon.org/pavilions/othertents.html
> 
> In the Cloth of Gold, there are ropes and they clearly do not support the
> structure.  You can see the centerpole and stuff inside, but clearly no
> perimeter poles.  How does the tent keep this shape?
> 
> In the German woodcut, some of the tents have ropes, but others don't.  How
> do they keep their shape?
> 
> In the 1360 tournament camp, NONE of those tents show ropes...
> 
> The French painting again shows a lot of shape and structure but no
> indications of perimeter poles or ropes.
> 
> 3) Look at the BNF again, specifically the "Genoese besieging Mahdia, in
> Tunisia (1390) (BNF, FR 2646)" at
> http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/images/jpeg/i3_0080.jpg  and look at the
> tents.  NONE of them show ropes nor any indication of perimeter poles, yet
> they maintain their shape and structure somehow.   Similar is the "Massacre
> of the Christian prisoners taken an the Battle of Nicopol, in the presence
> of the Ottoman Sultan Bayezid I. (BNF, FR 2646)" at
> http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/images/jpeg/i3_0095.jpg.
> 
> 4) Look at the Dream of Constatine, by Piero della Francesco, c. 1455, and
> see the center pole, without any perimeter poles or ropes.
> 
> 5) Look at the Tent of Hope, in King Renee's Book of Love, 1457.  You can
> clearly see ropes, and it may be that these truly do hold the tent out at
> the correct shape and angle, however it also appears that you can see
> through to the inside with no appearance of perimeter poles.  However, other
> round tents in King Renee's book, like the round tent in the "Honour's Tent"
> painting could not have that shape with just the ropes.
> 
> While I cannot prove what DESIGN the interior structure used, you will be
> hard pressed to prove to me that they did not have *some sort* of interior
> structure.  It may have been a wagon wheel, as some have suggested, but then
> a wagon wheel is really just a hub and spoke design.  I don't believe that
> wagon wheels were routinely used, because there were some awfully large
> tents, and I have seen no evidence for wheels that were 12 feet (or even 8
> feet) in diameter like the hubs and spokes in my two pavilinos...
> 
> (I like to believe that) I am open to differing opinions and willing to
> examine the evidence presented and critically think through the arguments
> made that hub and spoke tents are "not period".  Please share them with me.
> 
> respectfully,
> 
>                      Terafan
> 
> Master Rhys Terafan Greydragon           barclayp at eucom.mil
> University Chancellor, brewer and probably other things I can't remember...
> Seneschal, Incipient Shire of Blauwasser
> 
> 
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-- 
Spinning Winds Pavilions and Tents www.spinningwinds.com
Kingdom of Ansteorra's Tent Guild  tentguild at ansteorra.org
Lady Marguerite des Fleur, 
marguerite at ih2000.net
4260 Arthur Lane
Beaumont, Tx. 77706
phone 409-899-1488
cell 409-892-0206
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