PE - Spoked wheel design .... was Ropes or not to rope!

[Barclay, Peter C. MAJ]

Greetings from Master Terafan,

	Lady Marguerite has unknowingly punched one of my hot buttons.... IF
you don't want to read a long note about tents, then stop now and delete it.


First off, I have no problem with ropes.  My issue is not about ropes, and I
have those good pictures about the "high wind wire" attachment points on the
roof caps of the tent in Basel.   Just because I don't use ropes on my
pavilino doesn't mean they are not a good idea.  I simply have stakes that
go 14 or so inches into the ground, and I have withstood some very heavy
winds and rains without a problem. 

My real issue is Marguerite's comment that spoke wheel design tents are not
period:  

>The spoke wheel design is not yet proven to be documentable. If any one has
documentation please let us know where it is >we have been trying to get
real documentation for a long time but you have to see the actual frame.
They look great they >are very nice looking but they are not period. 


While she is correct in that we currently have no clear, positive proof of
the *design* of the inner structure, we have obvious clear proof (by
inference) of some sort of interior structure.   Now, why do I say this?

1) Many period paintings have NO ropes on the tents, even by people who put
ropes on the tents in many of their paintings.  Look at the paintings of
Jean Froissart, Chronicles in the Bibliothèque Nationale de France,
http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/aaccueil.htm.  Many of these have ropes and
many do not.  In particular, look at the following images:
- Charles of Blois, duke of Brittany, besieging Hennebont (1342). (BNF, FR
2643) 
- Charles of Blois, duke of Brittany, is taken prisoner at the Battle of La
Roche-Derrien (1347). (BNF, FR 2643) 
- Edward III of England besieging Reims (1359/60) (BNF, FR 2643) 
- Battle of Cassel: the French combat the Flemish (1328). (BNF, FR 2643) 

In the Hennebont painting, the red tent in the background appears to ropes
(look at the right most crow's foot, it appears to be going off the edge),
yet the white tent seems to definitely NOT have ropes.  How would it have
this shape without some interior structure?

I am interested in the explanation for the tent that is collapsing (in La
Roche-Derrien painting).  How could it possibly be collapsing as indicated
and still retain that conical top if it did not have *some kind* of interior
structure?

In the Edward III picture, there is no way the tent in the foreground could
have the shape and structure using only the ropes and angles indicated.  

The front tent in the Cassel picture is similar.  We can see "into" the tent
but there are no perimeter poles, and the ropes indicated would not give it
that shape and structure.


2) I have put some other pictures on the web, including one from the Cloth
of the Field of Gold, a German woodcut from 1520, a drawing from around
1360, and a 14th century French painting from the Bibliotheque Nationale in
Paris.  http://www.greydragon.org/pavilions/othertents.html

In the Cloth of Gold, there are ropes and they clearly do not support the
structure.  You can see the centerpole and stuff inside, but clearly no
perimeter poles.  How does the tent keep this shape?

In the German woodcut, some of the tents have ropes, but others don't.  How
do they keep their shape?

In the 1360 tournament camp, NONE of those tents show ropes...

The French painting again shows a lot of shape and structure but no
indications of perimeter poles or ropes.


3) Look at the BNF again, specifically the "Genoese besieging Mahdia, in
Tunisia (1390) (BNF, FR 2646)" at
http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/images/jpeg/i3_0080.jpg  and look at the
tents.  NONE of them show ropes nor any indication of perimeter poles, yet
they maintain their shape and structure somehow.   Similar is the "Massacre
of the Christian prisoners taken an the Battle of Nicopol, in the presence
of the Ottoman Sultan Bayezid I. (BNF, FR 2646)" at
http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/images/jpeg/i3_0095.jpg.  


4) Look at the Dream of Constatine, by Piero della Francesco, c. 1455, and
see the center pole, without any perimeter poles or ropes.  


5) Look at the Tent of Hope, in King Renee's Book of Love, 1457.  You can
clearly see ropes, and it may be that these truly do hold the tent out at
the correct shape and angle, however it also appears that you can see
through to the inside with no appearance of perimeter poles.  However, other
round tents in King Renee's book, like the round tent in the "Honour's Tent"
painting could not have that shape with just the ropes.  


While I cannot prove what DESIGN the interior structure used, you will be
hard pressed to prove to me that they did not have *some sort* of interior
structure.  It may have been a wagon wheel, as some have suggested, but then
a wagon wheel is really just a hub and spoke design.  I don't believe that
wagon wheels were routinely used, because there were some awfully large
tents, and I have seen no evidence for wheels that were 12 feet (or even 8
feet) in diameter like the hubs and spokes in my two pavilinos...

(I like to believe that) I am open to differing opinions and willing to
examine the evidence presented and critically think through the arguments
made that hub and spoke tents are "not period".  Please share them with me.



respectfully, 

                     Terafan

Master Rhys Terafan Greydragon           barclayp at eucom.mil
University Chancellor, brewer and probably other things I can't remember...
Seneschal, Incipient Shire of Blauwasser

 
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