[Ravensfort] viking garb

Kief av Kiersted sirkief at yahoo.com
Wed Feb 4 02:25:57 PST 2004


Heilsa Jacinth...!

Great rant...!

Without reading ahead and skewing my reply because of other
replies I will write this in the moment of "first thought on the
matter".

We do not, in the SCA, even come close to approaching some of the
more focused reconstruction and reenactment organizations... Not
by a long shot...with the obvious exceptions...of those that have
made an intensive and extensive study of a particular
subject...like fabric and methods of clothing construction.

Usually those that have made that serious effort at an authentic
piece of clothing or complete outfit...are *not* the ones that
"snipe" at those who, in their innocent ignorance, get it
incorrect. I, personally, will probably never have an "authentic
kit" from thread to tent... But, that fact does not stop me from
striving to at least "look" the part and use the best materials
that I can afford to represent my chosen geographic and temporal
location. A "linen look alike" and "Viking sword" made in India
is far better than tie-dye and elf ears...........

Those that appear in court in the aforementioned tie-dye and elf
ears are kindly directed to other more fantasy based
organizations...thank-you-very-much...we don't do that any
more... (Unless, of course, it's part of Midsummer Nights
Dream....)

What some folks out there in SCA land tend to forget is that they
too were once a "newly come" bright eyed and idealistic time
traveler...and they have become so hidebound in what they "know"
as fact that they fail to see it is no longer supported by the
evidence. But, like many in the academic community...they have
based their reputation on something being a particular way...and
cannot afford to "lose face" by admitting they were wrong... So,
they become "snobs" and deride those that they see as "lesser in
skill and knowledge" yet refuse to see the progress that has left
them standing in the dust. So, if the new person actually
survives the "snob attack" and really wants to learn what the
heck is fact...there are plenty of folks out there that can
assist them in creating a more authentic kit... Folks like
Gunvor, Fionna, Jacinth, Lorraine, and many others in the
Research and applied Arts and Science community...

As well, we are *all* lucky that the SCA and/or our Kingdom does
not *require* a serious attempt at a "period kit" for our various
personnas...very few of use could even begin to afford that. I've
seen, first hand, what some Viking reenactment folks have for a
kit on my trip to Minnesota... *woooooooeeeee* damned impressive
and quite expensive...not to mention hard to transport...

So...good neighbors...do what you can...but make it the very best
effort you can afford in both money, time, and knowledge...

Your good neighbor....

Kief


====

--- jacinth <jacinth at mail.ev1.net> wrote:
> "Olivia G. Rodrigues" <ladyoliviar at lycos.com> wrote:
> >All I know is that I'm a member of the Society for CREATIVE 
> Anachronism...not the Society for Compulsive Analism.  
> 
> This may have been tossed this off innocently enough, but this
> is 
> statement is patently insulting to members who approach
> research
> (or any aspect of the SCA) seriously.  You may not have
> intended a 
> slight, but each time I hear this a small part of me dies
> inside, 
> and I just want to say...
> 
> <rant>
> 
> You touched on a nerve here.  After sitting on this all day, I
> would like to 
> address this in a rational manner.  I have heard this argument
> before, and it 
> really fails to acknowledge the facts that we should be here to
> learn, that 
> some people have more of a desire to learn than others, there
> exist members
> that have different interests and expertise, and also that we
> belong to a 
> society that contains kingdoms that have regionally different
> standards from 
> our own.  Too often it is fobbed off as justification for not
> even attempting 
> to do the right thing, even in the face of factual and doable
> information.  
> I provided the article as edification.  You may take what you
> like from it 
> and leave the rest, if that is your desire.  That does not give
> you free 
> license to grouse or be insulting because other people have
> more stringent 
> standards than you (please realize, terms like "garb snob",
> "authenticity 
> nazi", and "compulsive analism" are just as hurtful as someone
> criticizing 
> your garb because you made your hose out of spandex).  I may
> not complain 
> that others cannot financially meet some level of authenticity,
> but that 
> does not mean I think that we should not strive to better
> ourselves as 
> allowable... or at the very least acknowledge that there is
> room for 
> improvement (and believe me, there is always room for that).  
> 
> For all we know, she might also play with some of the viking
> reenactment 
> groups (it is known to happen), and her experience bleeds over
> from that.  
> I thought that the article had a lot of good factual
> information with 
> references (not to mention pictures!!) for those interested in
> whipping 
> something together for the event.  As with all sources, take
> them with a 
> grain of salt, and take a deep breath if you disagree.  The
> only complaints 
> I want to hear are the picking apart the academic arguments...
> not the 
> emotional ones (and I do recognize that there is a certain
> amount of 
> emotion to "how dare anyone point out that what I am doing is
> not 
> documentably correct", nobody likes criticism) which lead to ad
> hominem 
> attacks that really have no place on this list.
> 
> </rant>
> 
> That being said....
> 
> On the academic side, you can always argue that the
> archeological record 
> can be interpreted in different ways.  This is a valid
> argument.  As Mistress 
> Fionna pointed out, it is hard to tell similar bast fibers
> apart unless it is 
> done chemically (yes, somewhere I have read this, too)... and
> frankly, I'd 
> have to say much of the existing textile analysis is pretty
> thin, considering 
> that in the past most archeologists were more interested in the
> larger finds 
> than little scraps of fabric that invariably got brushed off or
> ignored in 
> deference to the obvious "big find".  (I seem to recall an
> anecdotal account 
> of Howard Carter using fabric remains in Tut's tomb for padding
> the pottery 
> for shipment.)   I have an understanding from the articles and
> books I have 
> read that there is still a lot of textile evidence that has
> _never_ been 
> analyzed, let alone catalogued... and as someone interested in
> textiles in a 
> historical context it is very frustrating to know that the tiny
> bit of evidence 
> you need to document something may be sitting in a box or
> envelope in a 
> storage room of some museum and has never been properly
> examined 
> because it was not deemed important enough.  If you also take
> into account 
> that it requires special conditions for textile fragments to
> survive to modern 
> times, then I think you might begin to understand that what we
> do have 
> documented is a very small sampling of the whole record; the
> recorded finds 
> we have are statistically skewed, and seem to leave great
> gaping holes in 
> our understanding of what was truly the norm.  In this light,
> it is harder to 
> say "they never did that" when it is quite possible that there
> might exist 
> evidence that hasn't been published.  [Before you jump to
> conclusions, I am 
> not espousing the belief that "just because there isn't
> evidence doesn't 
> mean they didn't do it".  I am a firm believer in sticking to
> what there is 
> proof for... although there have been cases where hypotheses
> have been 
> disproven!!  Just look at all the naalbinding that has been
> reclassified from 
> finds initally designated as knitting samples, once properly
> analyzed by 
> someone with a good knowledge of textile structure.]
> 
> As far as applying the info to SCA in our kingdom, when someone
> argues that 
> they "only" used this and that... consider what we have to work
> with.  Then 
> in our particular context you may make the argument that it is
> okay to use 
> fabric X because it is similar in hand and texture to fabric Y
> (provide small 
> samples, if you have to prove the point)...  however we only
> have 
> documented evidence that they used Y, but not X.  While not
> technically 
> referenced, we still can achieve an authentic "look", feel and
> drape, which 
> is certainly good enough for SCA daily use (think 10-foot
> rule).  If you can't 
> afford to do what has been documented, then by all means don't
> buy that... 
> but at least attempt to make it look correct and show that you
> understand 
> that it isn't documentably correct.  Then you can use the good
> stuff for 
> important projects, like high-level A&S competition.... even in
> competition, 
> sometimes it is okay to substitute X for Y, if you can
> _support_ the 
> argument that it is similar to Y, state that you don't have
> access or funds 
> for X, and you acknowledge that your documentation only
> supports the use 
> of Y (demonstrate that you didn't make all this up just so you
> could enter 
> your item).  This presupposes that you admit all this... even
> though you can 
> omit it, it is the honorable thing to do, even if the judge may
> not be 
> cognizant of the switch -- however, I personally would rather
> own up to it, 
> rather than be caught in a lie of omission (which can be more
> embarrassing).
> 
> There is a lot more to this than meets the eye; I'm keeping
> this short (ha!), 
> because I am sure I have lost a lot of people by this point.  I
> am happy to 
> discuss fibers, as I am sure Fionna is, too!  Do the best you
> can with what 
> you have!!
> 
> Regards,
> -Jacinth-
> 
> Disclaimer:  The above statement is based on my personal
> experience and
> research.  Your milage may vary.  I welcome constructive
> criticism, and
> you may disagree with my statements.  Unsubstantiated flames
> will be 
> deleted.  And yes, you might have guessed... I am by your terms
> "anal".


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