[Ravensfort] Of Classes and things was ( A note of Protocol, please)

Wed Mar 30 06:30:23 PDT 2011

Stargate's event isn't that far off.  I offer my shop for the class.  But honestly, I'm a visual learner so I need to see pictures of the different brass hats to go with the HL, HM, and I do know a Duke or Duchess is Your Grace (I think) but I have no bloody clue what their hat looks like.  Oh and I know a filet (spelling?) to hold a veil in place is just a veil holder not a brass hat thingy.

Lady Runa of The Thundering Herd
Barony of Raven's Fort
Knight Marshal
Deputy Minister of Arts
Apprentice to Mistress Shanahan
Bronze, Tidal Thunder
Amazon Household
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: PatriciaSchmidt 
  To: 'Sher M' ; 'HerrDetlef' 
  Cc: ravensfort at lists.ansteorra.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 9:34 PM
  Subject: Of Classes and things was ( A note of Protocol, please)

  I will be glad to do both as they seem to go hand in hand.  

  M. Jalali of Salamis, OL

  From: Sher M [mailto:runa.herd at earthlink.net] 
  Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 4:01 PM
  To: HerrDetlef; PatriciaSchmidt
  Cc: ravensfort at lists.ansteorra.org
  Subject: Re: [Ravensfort] A note of Protocol, please

  Which brings me back to my original statement.  I only learned the difference on Sunday afternoon.  Quite honestly if a brass hat of any type is standing in front of me and I do not know them personally I don't know how to tell the difference via their brass hats.  So if I don't know them I do a short curtsey and flee.  We need a visual of the 'hat' for each 'level' with how to address that particular hat.  I see people sign messages as HL XYZ, Lord MNO, etc.  I know with your AoA you are declared a Lord or Lady.  I know Mistress ABC means Laurel does it also include Pelicans?

  We need a protocol class and brass hat explanation class.

  Lady Runa of The Thundering Herd
  Barony of Raven's Fort
  Knight Marshal
  Deputy Minister of Arts
  Apprentice to Mistress Shanahan
  Bronze, Tidal Thunder
  Amazon Household

    ----- Original Message ----- 

    From: HerrDetlef 

    To: PatriciaSchmidt 

    Cc: ravensfort at lists.ansteorra.org 

    Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 2:14 PM

    Subject: Re: [Ravensfort] A note of Protocol, please

    In Her Excellency's defense, I'd like to suggest that the "of" was perhaps simply forgotten. I often forget to write critical words...and I'm an English teacher! I should know better!

    If Her Excellency was unaware of the Atenveldtian custom of titling a founding baron "Baron (Name of Barony)," then I dropped the ball. I forgot to cover this bit of protocol with them before they were invested, and I would like to apologize deeply for any offense I have caused by this oversight of mine.

    For what it's worth:

    Since Ansteorra was once part of the Kingdom of Atenveldt, we have kept the Atenvedtian custom of titling our founding barons and baronesses with "Baron (Name of Barony)" and "Baroness (Name of Barony)" in perpetuity. As such, Kief and Alix are still Baron and Baroness Raven's Fort, even though they are no longer the Baron and Baroness OF Raven's Fort.

    TECHNICALLY (but not properly, since this is not an established custom in Ansteorra), subsequent barons and baronesses of Raven's Fort can still use the name of the barony in their names--somewhat following a custom that I will describe here in a bit. But since doing that would cause too much confusion--thanks to another breach of protocol which is widely committed but never discussed--we have to let this one go.

    In Germany, the head of a baronial household is considered the actual baron, but his children (and also his younger brothers and unmarried younger sisters) also use the title "baron" in their names. Let's say that Heinrich is the Baron von Chemnitz. His name and title are properly Heinrich Freiherr (German for "baron") von Chemnitz. His son Ulrich is titled "Freiherr Ulrich von Chemnitz," and his younger brother Dietrich is likewise "Freiherr Dietrich von Chemnitz." It's just that, for the senior member of the household, the title "Freiherr" is bound to the family name (which corresponds to the name of the barony in SCA usage), while for junior members, the title is bound to the personal name. 

    In the United Kingdom, members of the Royal Family are also titled along a similar pattern. The first example that comes to mind is HRH Princess Mary Adelaide of Cambridge, whose father was the Duke of Cambridge. Since she was not a senior member of the house of Cambridge, she used her given names in tandem with the title "Princess," although her father and then her older brother--when they were the senior members of the house of Cambridge--were simply HRH The Duke of Cambridge. (I think that, while her father was still alive, Mary Adelaide's older brother was titled HRH Prince George of Cambridge. Their father--as a son of King George III--was HRH Prince Adolphus of the United Kingdom before he was created HRH The Duke of Cambridge.) A more current example is HRH The Prince of Wales's sons, who are HRH Prince William of Wales and HRH Prince Henry of Wales...Prince William of Wales will become HRH The Duke of Cornwall when his father becomes King, and then HRH The Prince of Wales if and when his father invests him with that title.

    SO...the listing of barons and baronesses of Raven's Fort would look like this:

    Their Excellencies Baron and Baroness Raven's Fort (Sir Arenvald Kief av Kiersted and The Honorable Lady Alix Catlin de Curci)

    Their Excellencies Baron David of Raven's Fort and Baroness Chrystal of Raven's Fort

    Their Excellencies Baron Niklas of Raven's Fort and Baroness Kezia of Raven's Fort

    Their Excellencies Baron Brian of Raven's Fort and Baroness Fionna of Raven's Fort

    Their Excellencies the Baron and Baroness of Raven's Fort (Lord Pasquale Pace and Lady Giovanna Lena Caronna)

    David, Chrystal, Niklas, Kezia, Brian, and Fionna can use the title "Baron/Baroness" with their given names, since they are no longer landed barons. But you and Pace can only use the title "Baron/Baroness" with the name of the barony while you are landeds.

    But, like I said, the propriety of referring to a landed baron/ess only with the name of the barony and not their personal names is lamentably ignored. So in reality, the formers are not afforded the courtesy of appending "of Raven's Fort" after their given names, and thus the baronial roll of Raven's Fort looks like this:

    Their Excellencies Baron and Baroness Raven's Fort (Sir Arenvald Kief av Kiersted and The Honorable Lady Alix Catlin de Curci)

    Their Excellencies Baron David St. David and Baroness Chrystal Arianna MacRuari

    Their Excellencies Baron Niklas Vasilevich and Baroness Kilbarta Kezia

    Their Excellencies Baron Brian du Val and Baroness Fionna ni Cheallaigh (technically, though, the title "Mistress" outranks "Baroness" in the case of a court baroness who's also a peer, so she is actually "Her Excellency Mistress Fionna ni Cheallaigh")

    Their Excellencies the Baron and Baroness of Raven's Fort (Lord Pasquale Pace and Lady Giovanna Lena Caronna)

    During their tenure, all of the above--except for Kief and Alix, who were Baron and Baroness of Raven's Fort from the moment of their investiture--were Baron and Baroness of Raven's Fort while they were the landeds.

    I apologize for forgetting to cover this with Their Excellencies. The fault is completely mine, and not theirs.

    Detlef

    On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 11:48 PM, PatriciaSchmidt <iris20 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

    A note of protocol please:

    Only a founding Baron or Baroness have the right to the title: Baron (group
    name) or Baroness( group name). They also retain that distinction of tile
    even after retiring the Baronial thrones.  All successors are styled: Baron
    OF (group name) or Baroness OF (group name).  If in doubt, please
    doublecheck the section in Kingdom law and, I believe, also in corpora as it
    relates to titles.

    M. Jalali of Salamis, OL
    Behold the power of Please...

    (snipped for brevity)
    Message: 7

    From: Gary and Carolyn Pace <bandb.ravensfort at gmail.com>
    Date: Monday, March 28, 2011
    Subject: Baronial Investiture
    To: ravensfort at lists.ansteorra.org

    Greetings to the good people of Raven's Fort,
     We want to take this opportunity to thank everyone who had
    anything to do with the Baronial Investiture that took place this
    weekend.
      Yours in service with much love,
    --
    Pasquale and Giovanna
    Baron and Baroness Raven's Fort

    ******************************************

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    Oft Scyld Scefing         sceaþena þreatum,
    monegum mægþum,         meodosetla ofteah,
    egsode eorlas.         Syððan ærest wearð
    feasceaft funden,         he þæs frofre gebad,
    weox under wolcnum,         weorðmyndum þah,
    oðþæt him æghwylc         þara ymbsittendra
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