[Ravensfort] A note of Protocol, please

Tue Mar 29 12:14:45 PDT 2011

In Her Excellency's defense, I'd like to suggest that the "of" was perhaps
simply forgotten. I often forget to write critical words...and I'm an
English teacher! I should know better!

If Her Excellency was unaware of the Atenveldtian custom of titling a
founding baron "Baron (Name of Barony)," then I dropped the ball. I forgot
to cover this bit of protocol with them before they were invested, and I
would like to apologize deeply for any offense I have caused by this
oversight of mine.

For what it's worth:

 Since Ansteorra was once part of the Kingdom of Atenveldt, we have kept the
Atenvedtian custom of titling our founding barons and baronesses with "Baron
(Name of Barony)" and "Baroness (Name of Barony)" in perpetuity. As such,
Kief and Alix are still Baron and Baroness Raven's Fort, even though they
are no longer the Baron and Baroness OF Raven's Fort.

TECHNICALLY (but not properly, since this is not an established custom in
Ansteorra), subsequent barons and baronesses of Raven's Fort can still use
the name of the barony in their names--somewhat following a custom that I
will describe here in a bit. But since doing that would cause too much
confusion--thanks to another breach of protocol which is widely committed
but never discussed--we have to let this one go.

In Germany, the head of a baronial household is considered the actual baron,
but his children (and also his younger brothers and unmarried younger
sisters) also use the title "baron" in their names. Let's say that Heinrich
is the Baron von Chemnitz. His name and title are properly Heinrich Freiherr
(German for "baron") von Chemnitz. His son Ulrich is titled "Freiherr Ulrich
von Chemnitz," and his younger brother Dietrich is likewise "Freiherr
Dietrich von Chemnitz." It's just that, for the senior member of the
household, the title "Freiherr" is bound to the family name (which
corresponds to the name of the barony in SCA usage), while for junior
members, the title is bound to the personal name.

In the United Kingdom, members of the Royal Family are also titled along a
similar pattern. The first example that comes to mind is HRH Princess Mary
Adelaide of Cambridge, whose father was the Duke of Cambridge. Since she was
not a senior member of the house of Cambridge, she used her given names in
tandem with the title "Princess," although her father and then her older
brother--when they were the senior members of the house of Cambridge--were
simply HRH The Duke of Cambridge. (I think that, while her father was still
alive, Mary Adelaide's older brother was titled HRH Prince George of
Cambridge. Their father--as a son of King George III--was HRH Prince
Adolphus of the United Kingdom before he was created HRH The Duke of
Cambridge.) A more current example is HRH The Prince of Wales's sons, who
are HRH Prince William of Wales and HRH Prince Henry of Wales...Prince
William of Wales will become HRH The Duke of Cornwall when his father
becomes King, and then HRH The Prince of Wales if and when his father
invests him with that title.

SO...the listing of barons and baronesses of Raven's Fort would look like
this:

Their Excellencies Baron and Baroness Raven's Fort (Sir Arenvald Kief av
Kiersted and The Honorable Lady Alix Catlin de Curci)
Their Excellencies Baron David of Raven's Fort and Baroness Chrystal of
Raven's Fort
Their Excellencies Baron Niklas of Raven's Fort and Baroness Kezia of
Raven's Fort
Their Excellencies Baron Brian of Raven's Fort and Baroness Fionna of
Raven's Fort
Their Excellencies the Baron and Baroness of Raven's Fort (Lord Pasquale
Pace and Lady Giovanna Lena Caronna)

David, Chrystal, Niklas, Kezia, Brian, and Fionna can use the title
"Baron/Baroness" with their given names, since they are no longer landed
barons. But you and Pace can only use the title "Baron/Baroness" with the
name of the barony while you are landeds.

But, like I said, the propriety of referring to a landed baron/ess only with
the name of the barony and not their personal names is lamentably ignored.
So in reality, the formers are not afforded the courtesy of appending "of
Raven's Fort" after their given names, and thus the baronial roll of Raven's
Fort looks like this:

 Their Excellencies Baron and Baroness Raven's Fort (Sir Arenvald Kief av
Kiersted and The Honorable Lady Alix Catlin de Curci)
Their Excellencies Baron David St. David and Baroness Chrystal Arianna
MacRuari
Their Excellencies Baron Niklas Vasilevich and Baroness Kilbarta Kezia
Their Excellencies Baron Brian du Val and Baroness Fionna ni Cheallaigh
(technically, though, the title "Mistress" outranks "Baroness" in the case
of a court baroness who's also a peer, so she is actually "Her Excellency
Mistress Fionna ni Cheallaigh")
Their Excellencies the Baron and Baroness of Raven's Fort (Lord Pasquale
Pace and Lady Giovanna Lena Caronna)

During their tenure, all of the above--except for Kief and Alix, who were
Baron and Baroness of Raven's Fort from the moment of their
investiture--were Baron and Baroness of Raven's Fort while they were the
landeds.

I apologize for forgetting to cover this with Their Excellencies. The fault
is completely mine, and not theirs.

Detlef

On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 11:48 PM, PatriciaSchmidt <iris20 at sbcglobal.net>wrote:

> A note of protocol please:
>
> Only a founding Baron or Baroness have the right to the title: Baron (group
> name) or Baroness( group name). They also retain that distinction of tile
> even after retiring the Baronial thrones.  All successors are styled: Baron
> OF (group name) or Baroness OF (group name).  If in doubt, please
> doublecheck the section in Kingdom law and, I believe, also in corpora as
> it
> relates to titles.
>
>
> M. Jalali of Salamis, OL
> Behold the power of Please...
>
>
>
> (snipped for brevity)
> Message: 7
>
> From: Gary and Carolyn Pace <bandb.ravensfort at gmail.com>
> Date: Monday, March 28, 2011
> Subject: Baronial Investiture
> To: ravensfort at lists.ansteorra.org
>
>
> Greetings to the good people of Raven's Fort,
>  We want to take this opportunity to thank everyone who had
> anything to do with the Baronial Investiture that took place this
> weekend.
>   Yours in service with much love,
> --
> Pasquale and Giovanna
> Baron and Baroness Raven's Fort
>
>
>
>
> ******************************************
>
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> Ravensfort at lists.ansteorra.org
> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ravensfort-ansteorra.org
>

-- 
Hwæt! We Gardena         in geardagum,
þeodcyninga,         þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas         ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scefing         sceaþena þreatum,
monegum mægþum,         meodosetla ofteah,
egsode eorlas.         Syððan ærest wearð
feasceaft funden,         he þæs frofre gebad,
weox under wolcnum,         weorðmyndum þah,
oðþæt him æghwylc         þara ymbsittendra
ofer hronrade         hyran scolde,
gomban gyldan.         þæt wæs god cyning!
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