[Ravensfort] A note of Protocol, please

Tue Mar 29 13:30:05 PDT 2011

I would also like to point out that, after her marriage, HRH Princess Mary
Adelaide of Cambridge was known as HRH The Duchess of Teck (She kept the HRH
style, even though her husband was only an HSH). Their daughter was born HSH
The Princess Victoria Mary of Teck, who married the Duke of York and became
HRH The Duchess of York...then HRH The Duchess of Cornwall upon her
father-in-law's succession to the throne as Edward VII, HRH The Princess of
Wales upon her husband's creation as Prince of Wales, HM The Queen upon her
husband's succession to the throne as George V, and finally HM Queen Mary
upon her husband's death.

It's a fun game. You should try it sometime! :-)

Detlef

On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 2:14 PM, HerrDetlef <herrdetlef at gmail.com> wrote:

> In Her Excellency's defense, I'd like to suggest that the "of" was perhaps
> simply forgotten. I often forget to write critical words...and I'm an
> English teacher! I should know better!
>
> If Her Excellency was unaware of the Atenveldtian custom of titling a
> founding baron "Baron (Name of Barony)," then I dropped the ball. I forgot
> to cover this bit of protocol with them before they were invested, and I
> would like to apologize deeply for any offense I have caused by this
> oversight of mine.
>
> For what it's worth:
>
>  Since Ansteorra was once part of the Kingdom of Atenveldt, we have kept
> the Atenvedtian custom of titling our founding barons and baronesses with
> "Baron (Name of Barony)" and "Baroness (Name of Barony)" in perpetuity. As
> such, Kief and Alix are still Baron and Baroness Raven's Fort, even though
> they are no longer the Baron and Baroness OF Raven's Fort.
>
> TECHNICALLY (but not properly, since this is not an established custom in
> Ansteorra), subsequent barons and baronesses of Raven's Fort can still use
> the name of the barony in their names--somewhat following a custom that I
> will describe here in a bit. But since doing that would cause too much
> confusion--thanks to another breach of protocol which is widely committed
> but never discussed--we have to let this one go.
>
> In Germany, the head of a baronial household is considered the actual
> baron, but his children (and also his younger brothers and unmarried younger
> sisters) also use the title "baron" in their names. Let's say that Heinrich
> is the Baron von Chemnitz. His name and title are properly Heinrich Freiherr
> (German for "baron") von Chemnitz. His son Ulrich is titled "Freiherr Ulrich
> von Chemnitz," and his younger brother Dietrich is likewise "Freiherr
> Dietrich von Chemnitz." It's just that, for the senior member of the
> household, the title "Freiherr" is bound to the family name (which
> corresponds to the name of the barony in SCA usage), while for junior
> members, the title is bound to the personal name.
>
> In the United Kingdom, members of the Royal Family are also titled along a
> similar pattern. The first example that comes to mind is HRH Princess Mary
> Adelaide of Cambridge, whose father was the Duke of Cambridge. Since she was
> not a senior member of the house of Cambridge, she used her given names in
> tandem with the title "Princess," although her father and then her older
> brother--when they were the senior members of the house of Cambridge--were
> simply HRH The Duke of Cambridge. (I think that, while her father was still
> alive, Mary Adelaide's older brother was titled HRH Prince George of
> Cambridge. Their father--as a son of King George III--was HRH Prince
> Adolphus of the United Kingdom before he was created HRH The Duke of
> Cambridge.) A more current example is HRH The Prince of Wales's sons, who
> are HRH Prince William of Wales and HRH Prince Henry of Wales...Prince
> William of Wales will become HRH The Duke of Cornwall when his father
> becomes King, and then HRH The Prince of Wales if and when his father
> invests him with that title.
>
> SO...the listing of barons and baronesses of Raven's Fort would look like
> this:
>
> Their Excellencies Baron and Baroness Raven's Fort (Sir Arenvald Kief av
> Kiersted and The Honorable Lady Alix Catlin de Curci)
> Their Excellencies Baron David of Raven's Fort and Baroness Chrystal of
> Raven's Fort
> Their Excellencies Baron Niklas of Raven's Fort and Baroness Kezia of
> Raven's Fort
> Their Excellencies Baron Brian of Raven's Fort and Baroness Fionna of
> Raven's Fort
> Their Excellencies the Baron and Baroness of Raven's Fort (Lord Pasquale
> Pace and Lady Giovanna Lena Caronna)
>
> David, Chrystal, Niklas, Kezia, Brian, and Fionna can use the title
> "Baron/Baroness" with their given names, since they are no longer landed
> barons. But you and Pace can only use the title "Baron/Baroness" with the
> name of the barony while you are landeds.
>
> But, like I said, the propriety of referring to a landed baron/ess only
> with the name of the barony and not their personal names is lamentably
> ignored. So in reality, the formers are not afforded the courtesy of
> appending "of Raven's Fort" after their given names, and thus the baronial
> roll of Raven's Fort looks like this:
>
>  Their Excellencies Baron and Baroness Raven's Fort (Sir Arenvald Kief av
> Kiersted and The Honorable Lady Alix Catlin de Curci)
> Their Excellencies Baron David St. David and Baroness Chrystal Arianna
> MacRuari
> Their Excellencies Baron Niklas Vasilevich and Baroness Kilbarta Kezia
> Their Excellencies Baron Brian du Val and Baroness Fionna ni Cheallaigh
> (technically, though, the title "Mistress" outranks "Baroness" in the case
> of a court baroness who's also a peer, so she is actually "Her Excellency
> Mistress Fionna ni Cheallaigh")
> Their Excellencies the Baron and Baroness of Raven's Fort (Lord Pasquale
> Pace and Lady Giovanna Lena Caronna)
>
> During their tenure, all of the above--except for Kief and Alix, who were
> Baron and Baroness of Raven's Fort from the moment of their
> investiture--were Baron and Baroness of Raven's Fort while they were the
> landeds.
>
> I apologize for forgetting to cover this with Their Excellencies. The fault
> is completely mine, and not theirs.
>
> Detlef
>
>
>
>   On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 11:48 PM, PatriciaSchmidt <iris20 at sbcglobal.net>wrote:
>
>> A note of protocol please:
>>
>> Only a founding Baron or Baroness have the right to the title: Baron
>> (group
>> name) or Baroness( group name). They also retain that distinction of tile
>> even after retiring the Baronial thrones.  All successors are styled:
>> Baron
>> OF (group name) or Baroness OF (group name).  If in doubt, please
>> doublecheck the section in Kingdom law and, I believe, also in corpora as
>> it
>> relates to titles.
>>
>>
>> M. Jalali of Salamis, OL
>> Behold the power of Please...
>>
>>
>>
>> (snipped for brevity)
>> Message: 7
>>
>> From: Gary and Carolyn Pace <bandb.ravensfort at gmail.com>
>> Date: Monday, March 28, 2011
>> Subject: Baronial Investiture
>> To: ravensfort at lists.ansteorra.org
>>
>>
>> Greetings to the good people of Raven's Fort,
>>  We want to take this opportunity to thank everyone who had
>> anything to do with the Baronial Investiture that took place this
>> weekend.
>>   Yours in service with much love,
>> --
>> Pasquale and Giovanna
>> Baron and Baroness Raven's Fort
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ******************************************
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ravensfort mailing list
>> Ravensfort at lists.ansteorra.org
>> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ravensfort-ansteorra.org
>>
>
>
>
>  --
> Hwæt! We Gardena         in geardagum,
> þeodcyninga,         þrym gefrunon,
> hu ða æþelingas         ellen fremedon.
> Oft Scyld Scefing         sceaþena þreatum,
> monegum mægþum,         meodosetla ofteah,
> egsode eorlas.         Syððan ærest wearð
> feasceaft funden,         he þæs frofre gebad,
> weox under wolcnum,         weorðmyndum þah,
> oðþæt him æghwylc         þara ymbsittendra
> ofer hronrade         hyran scolde,
> gomban gyldan.         þæt wæs god cyning!
>

-- 
Hwæt! We Gardena         in geardagum,
þeodcyninga,         þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas         ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scefing         sceaþena þreatum,
monegum mægþum,         meodosetla ofteah,
egsode eorlas.         Syððan ærest wearð
feasceaft funden,         he þæs frofre gebad,
weox under wolcnum,         weorðmyndum þah,
oðþæt him æghwylc         þara ymbsittendra
ofer hronrade         hyran scolde,
gomban gyldan.         þæt wæs god cyning!
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.ansteorra.org/pipermail/ravensfort-ansteorra.org/attachments/20110329/03ab4fb7/attachment-0006.htm>