[Ravensfort] BOD Ruling
herrdetlef at gmail.com
Thu Oct 20 19:26:28 PDT 2011
Oh, yes. And Charlemagne and his brother Carloman were both styled rex
francorum ("King of the Franks"), until Carloman's death left Charlemagne
the sole ruler of the Frankish kingdom. So you could probably cite Einhard's
"Vita Caroli". Charlemagne left the title rex francorum to his son, Louis
the Pious (or--my preference--Ludwig der Fromme), who in turn left the title
to three of his sons--Charles the Bald (rex francorum over the western third
of the kingdom/empire), Lothair (rex francorum over the middle third of the
kingdom/empire), and Ludwig der Deutsche (rex francorum over the eastern
third of the kingdom/empire). Indeed, that division of the title rex
francorum lasted well into the middle ages, with the German king styled in
Latin, not rex teutonicum, but rex francorum et imperator romanum.
Curiously, the style rex francorum was shared, while the title imperator
romanum was not (sort of; the title imperator romanum WAS shared between the
western and eastern/Byzantine Roman emperors...again, a royal dignity shared
between members of the SAME SEX).
Again: the relationship between Charlemagne and Carloman, while indeed a
same-sex relationship, was not a SEXUAL relationship (as far as all the
surviving evidence indicates); and the relationsip among Charlemagne's three
grandsons was also not a sexual relationship. STILL--the sharing of the
royal dignity between or among members of the same sex IS PERIOD!
On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 6:13 PM, HerrDetlef <herrdetlef at gmail.com> wrote:
> Historical Precedent? Who here has read Gregory of Tours' "History of the
> Franks"? The Kingdom of the Franks often had three or even more kings at one
> time. There was no such thing as primogeniture, and sometimes the throne
> past to more than one of the previous king's (or kings') sons. Okay, I can't
> think of any names right now, but there it is.
> Who was the Frankish king who married Radegund the Thuringian princess? He
> and his brothers shared the royal dignity.
> And then there's the example I've already heard several times of Henry II
> naming his son Henry (the Young King) king in his own lifetime. For a few
> years (until the Young King's untimely death), England was ruled by two
> So there! IT'S FREAKING PERIOD!
> And then there's the story of the fragmentation of German
> principalities....so that we ended up with Dukes of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Dukes
> of Saxe-Meiningen, Dukes of Saxe-Weimar, Dukes of Saxe-Altenburg....etc.,
> etc. etc. The fragmentation continues even after the abolition of the German
> Empire--how many reining princes of Reuss von Plauen do we currently have?
> These were not same-sex couples, but there is a period justification for a
> kingdom having two kings (or two queens) at one time. And, for that matter,
> the concept of sexual orientation isn't period (a 19th century construct),
> so there really is no such thing as gay men or gay women in the Society. I
> think. Is this how it works?
> Sez I.
> Detlef von Marburg, ASCA, ORW
> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 1:16 PM, Darlene Burns <annescvb at gmail.com>wrote:
>> Here's a bit of history trivia for you and more food for thought. I and my
>> best friend, Caitlin, put our hats in the ring for the Stargate baronial
>> seats in the early 90's. Neither of us are lesbian and we were not in a
>> lesbian relationship but the crown at the time, dear friends of ours, said
>> that they wouldn't consider us because there was "no historical precedence."
>> I'm wondering when some sort of ruling about same gender came in because
>> *that* was not the issue at all. When 30 minutes at the library gave me 8
>> solid references of 2 women together ruling at the baronial level and higher
>> in SCA period, the crown relented and we were interviewed. We were not
>> chosen but really didn't expect to be. All of the women co-rulers were
>> either mother/daughter pairs or sister/sister pairs. Caitlin and I are
>> sisters-in-household and so fit that part historically just fine.
>> So if there was no gender ruling on baronial seats in the early 90's when
>> *did* the ruling come about and was it instituted in part because of what
>> Cait and I attempted to do back then?
>> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 3:16 PM, Lemoine Beers <loco.cerveza at gmail.com>wrote:
>>> Here id something of interest
>>> Lemoine de Gascony MKA"L.D. Beers" loco.cerveza at gmail.com
>>> "for my purpose holds To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths Of all the
>>> western stars, until I die." --Tennyson
>>> Ravensfort mailing list
>>> Ravensfort at lists.ansteorra.org
>> "Munerius Ultra Sanitas"
>> Ravensfort mailing list
>> Ravensfort at lists.ansteorra.org
> Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
> þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
> hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
> Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,
> monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah,
> egsode eorlas. Syððan ærest wearð
> feasceaft funden, he þæs frofre gebad,
> weox under wolcnum, weorðmyndum þah,
> oðþæt him æghwylc þara ymbsittendra
> ofer hronrade hyran scolde,
> gomban gyldan. þæt wæs god cyning!
Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,
monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah,
egsode eorlas. Syððan ærest wearð
feasceaft funden, he þæs frofre gebad,
weox under wolcnum, weorðmyndum þah,
oðþæt him æghwylc þara ymbsittendra
ofer hronrade hyran scolde,
gomban gyldan. þæt wæs god cyning!
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