SC - Mongols-silly

[LrdRas]

In a message dated 97-12-22 17:42:57 EST, you write:

<<  ....<snip>....basing my reply on the 1607 Arte de Coaina,>>

I am not familiar with this manuscript. It is a Spanish manuscript, si? :-) If
so, , I would humbly submit that perhaps the specific dates for the switch
from Medieval to Early Modern is different  depending on the area or country.
As Spain was for all intent and purposes a part of the Arabic world until
1490ish, it certainly does not surprise me that  the recipes you quote a
little over a hundred years later bear many elements of Islamic cookery. 

<<....<snip> ....The Spanish at this time were still very fond of sour &
sweet/sour flavor combinations at this point. >>

I agree but this sweet/sour use , in combination with mint (espicially the
mint) and the other spicery you mention it is, IMO, a clear indication of the
Middle Eastern basis for the cuisine. Observe also that many modern dishes use
this sweet/sour combination> barbeque, marinates, pickles, souse, some salads.
I would not however characterize these dishes as "examples" of typical modern
cuisine.
          
<<...<snip>...savory and "sweet" spices were not used in combination in the
same dish any longer>>

I should have said "were not used extensively in combination".

<< ...<snip> ....There are lots of recipes which call for "sweet" spices in
"savory" recipes.  >>

I can't disagree here but those combinations are used today in the Middle East
and not used , for the most part, except for scattered examples throughout the
rest of Europe. They also largely  disappeared iin the 1500-1600 range in
France, England, Germany and Italy (to a lesser extent)  for the most part. Of
course, exceptions can be found, mincemeat , , for example. 

<<....<snip>.....galangal & grains of paradise are not found>>

Since these spices are unique in flavor, their disappearance from cookery,
would create a pronounced change in flavor

<<.....<snip>.....ginger, cloves, & cinammon are widely used in this book.>>

As they are in almost all of my modern cook books. I fail to see the relevancy
of this statement... sorry.:-(

 << A recipe for stuffed lettuce calls for mint, parsley, borage, cinnamon,
 saffron with sugar & cinnamon on top as a garnish.>>

This example sounds suspiciously Persian.......:-)

<...<snip>....One recipe for eggplant which I posted recently....>>

Which, by the way, I saved and tried. Yummmm!!!! :-) Thank-you.

<<...<snip>..... eggplant ....boiled, chopped, fried ....<snip>.....
blancmange recipes .....meat to be cooked, minced & boiled with milk & ground
almonds.>>

I can't argue here but these particular dishes , especially the blancmange one
indicate a dish which is perfect for the use of leftover food.....I would be
surprised to find out that in actual usage except for "special" occasions that
the meat used was cooked specifically for the preparation of this dish. Be
that as it may, my comments on this subject were referring more toward the
chichen stuffed with prunes and boiled in lemon juice then browned in fat and
placed in the oven and roasted thingy.

<<.....<snip>....."Such a dish is very expensive & only to be seen at very
fancy occasions.">>

True. Every culture has their favorite holiday party-type food which is too
expensive to prepare on a daily basis. My observations in this area were too
general and vague.

<< ....<snip>.....edible musk & ground up amber!>>

These ingredients are not to my knowledge typical Medieval ingredients but
strongly suggest a "nouvelle cuisine".

<<....<snip>.....Many cookbooks after the mid 1400's .....<snip>....would have
been marketted towards ...middle class people, with .....more modest means.>>

True. My interest in SCA cookery leans more toward the cookery designed for
for nobility since theoretically SCA members are all considered noble-born. I
am , of course, interested in all types of cookery but I try to keep my focus
in SCA cookery more focused on the Middle Ages. I'm quite sure that the rising
middle class had some very good food but would I knowingly choose such dishes
for a feast to be served to noblemen? I like to think that I would not but we
do what we have to do on occasion....:-)

 <<...<snip>.... whole roasted peacock, cooked in parchment >>

This would work but it is not a Medieval technique. It is clearly a "new"
technique outside the realm of the Medieval kitchen. 

....<snip>.....Spain *should* have been one of the first countries to embrace
New World foods.>

This is true but it was not. The Mideast (why am I not surprised? :-))
followed by the Balkan countries on to Italy , then France, then to Spain and
finally on to England seems to be the general route of New world foods
Considering the political climate and the fact that Spain did not have very
good relations with the rest of Europe at this time, it does not surprise me
the main interest of the Spanish was in gold. I have no explanation for the
turn of events in this area and the lack of Spanish interest in New World
foods. Perhaps their is someone else on the list who has studied this aspect
of history more than I. Any information would be welcome.

<<...<snip>..... Overall, I would have to say that the general trends that al-
Sayyid Ras mentions are true, but I might call into question the actual dates
when they came into effect.  I would argue that cooking in the years 1500-1600
 are still strongly connected to the period that they evovled out of.  They
are *much* closer to Medieval food than to "modern" food.  Other opinions are
always welcome.
                                 Yours truly,
                                         Antoine de Bayonne >>

As I stated previously each country left the Middle Ages behind in their own
good time, but I presented the original information as a very broad overview.
Thanks to people like yourself , one is reminded of the pitfalls of speaking
in generalities. I am especially beholding to you for pointing out the
interesting information contained in the Arte..." clearly showing us that the
influence of Morrish culture was still being felt in Spain over a hundred
years after they had been driven out. This was something that I has suspected
but had no documention for. Where does one purchase the Arte from?


Ras
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