SC - Grapes VERY LONG for the gentle who missed the thread

[ChannonM at aol.com]

In a message dated 11/14/99 11:17:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
kyliewalker at hotmail.com writes:

<< I'm wondering if I missed the original post on this - it's right in my 
area 
 of interest (note I don't say expertise - the more I learn, the less I know, 
 etc etc) and I doubt I'd have skipped over anything with the word grape  >>

This was my first post on the subject;


<<If I recall correctly, there are some gentles on this list that also 
subscribe to the brewers and vinters list. I need some information regarding 
the pressing of unripe grapes and was hoping one of those gentles would post 
these questions to the other list. I have done several searches on the net, 
but I'm getting non specific info.

These are my questions;

Assuming we are talking about the genus "vitis vinifera" (to my knowledge, 
which is scant, this is a sort of "mother of grapes" and can be documented at 
least a few thousand years ago, but more importantly, as far back as the 
Roman Empire). 


1.What properties (taste) would result from pressing these grapes at or about 
the time they reach the size of a chick pea (approx. a third of an inch in 
diameter)?

2 Can a sweet product be derived from unripe grapes- say those harvested 
before mid July (or and I quote- when still covered in the first bloom), 
barring any drying of the grape beforehand and on the first press.?

If said product from either of  these processes is condensed (as in boiled 
down to a third its original volume) would it become sweet or sweeter than 
its predecessor?

Any help with these questions would be appreciated and can be posted to me 
directly if that is more convenient for the brewers/vinters list.>>


Then Master A responded;


< 2 Can a sweet product be derived from unripe grapes- say those harvested
> before mid July (or and I quote- when still covered in the first bloom),
> barring any drying of the grape beforehand and on the first press.?

Well, the trouble is that any sugar there is (and there won't be that
much) would tend to require some kind of concentration, either by drying
or by cooking, normally, and the problem with that is that you'd be
concentrating other chemicals as well as the sugar. The ratio, then, of
sugar to acids and astringents, would be unlikely to change. It'd still
make you pucker a bit, to say the least. 

> 
> If said product from either of  these processes is condensed (as in boiled
> down to a third its original volume) would it become sweet or sweeter than
> its predecessor?

No change, AFAIK. See above.>>

Lord Ras added;

<<Unripe grapes were harvested and pressed in the middle ages. The resulting 
fermented product is called 'verjuice' and is a much sought after product by 
modern recreational cooks. Concentrating the juice would result in a cooked 
taste that would neither be sweet nor retain the refreshing properties of the 
unrefined sourness.>>

And finally Pu..I mean Wulfrith stated;

<<Unless I am mistaken here, you're talking about making verjuice.>>

To which I replied;


<< I expect you and the author of whatever has the reference are
talking about different varieties of grape..>>

I am keeping this last comment in mind, but I believe the type of grape used 
was possibly vitis vinifera although there were about 50 or so types of 
grapes cultivated in Imperial Rome. Actually, what I am referring to are 
grapes that are used to make must according to Anthimus, Dioscorides and 
Pliny. I have been researching my earlier thread of the connection of Apician 
(modified to include  Roman) recipes and cooking to later French cooking. In 
particular - Taillevent. Note the similarity to verjuis? I don't think I have 
to go on about the importance of verjuis in early French cooking nor  for 
that matter the importance must plays in Roman cooking. I cannot 
unquestionably say that the Roman "must" is one and the same as verjuis, but 
this information makes the connection  more convincing . It also brings into 
question our interpretation of caroenum, defrutum and sapa (three reductions 
of must used extensively in Roman cooking) which ie Flowers and Rosenbaum 
equate  with a sweet liquid-made from tinned grape juice in their estimation. 
Every modern writer I have read on Roman cooking has used the same 
interpretation of a sweet juice including Giacosa, Grainger and last and in 
my opinion  least, Vehling. 

Anthimus actually says in the very last line of his letter to Theuduric in 
the 6th C;
uua passa similiter ipso genere de uuis dulcibus et albis. unfacium de uua 
cruda fit. 

translated by Mark Grant in his edition of the text as;
Raisins from sweet white grapes have similar properties. Must is made from 
unripe grapes.

I have also read a second source of English translation, written by a woman 
(can't remember her name at the moment). In it she interprets "cruda" as raw. 
I went to 3 online dictionaries and found that crudus can mean bleeding/ raw/ 
uncooked/ unripe/ green/ fresh/ immature/ untimely/ undigested/ harsh. In the 
context of the sentence, raw, just doesn't seem to fit. The sentence and 
preceeding sentence are not indicating any cooking methods or the need to 
cook or not. Using the word as unripe  would fit when accompanied by the 
comments that Mark Grant adds from the Corpus of Latin Glosses that the best 
must was made from grapes picked when no more that the size of chick peas and 
Pliny says that these early grapes were pressed to produce a dry red and 
rather bitter juice. 

It gives one reason to reconsider the sticky sweet grape juice we use when 
cooking Roman. I'll be doing some reworking of recipes and comparing the 
results. Of course, there may be more to this thread than I've gathered so 
I'm not pullin' out my soap box.... yet.:)


And finally I added in response to Lord Ras;
<<Again, Yes!!!!!,:) 
I apologize for being not being forthright in my opening post. I had to ask 
the questions I've been asking myself for a week. Thanks for  reasurring me 
that I'm not off my rocker>>. 
I had found the new information and was trepidatious about making the leap 
from must to verjuice, however, when I posted the original questions I was 
putting it out there for others interpretations. Of course there will be more 
to add to this discussion and I'm looking for detailed information on the 
etymology of grapes, in particular vitis vinifera, due to the fact that it 
can be traced back to the early Roman period. If anyone is aware of other 
ancient varieties of wine grapes, I'd be thrilled to know more about them. In 
addition I have been looking for documentable information about the earliest 
viticulture in France. I understand that grapes were found all over the world 
(even north america), but cultivating them would be different and even more 
questionable was when did the French beging to cultivate them and what 
influence did the Roman conquest have on that. I have found archaeological 
evidence that the Roman's brought cultivation of the vine as well as olive 
trees  to some Arabic areas (note I say cultivation) and that this had a 
significant effect on the type of settlement (semi-nomadic to permanent) but 
I'm looking for more details in the area of Gaul. I guess I need to post this 
to the Apicius list as well, maybe there are others with that kind of early 
info. 

Thank you to everyone who is contributing to this research.It is a passion of 
mine and I wish to do the topic justice.

Sincerely, Hauviette



If you've got a literary reference, say, to sweet grapes at about that
size, I expect you and the author of whatever has the reference are
talking about different varieties of grape...
============================================================================

To be removed from the SCA-Cooks mailing list, please send a message to
Majordomo at Ansteorra.ORG with the message body of "unsubscribe SCA-Cooks".

============================================================================