SC - RE:request to all members

Tue Apr 10 21:37:50 PDT 2001

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In a message dated 4/10/01 2:09:21 PM Mountain Daylight Time, 
betpulib at ptdprolog.net writes:

> Personally I find it rather incredible that no one has *ever* found evidence
> of combining flavored sugar syrups with alcohol (or vinegar) throughout
> history ;).
> 
> 

I have stayed out of this discussion for a bit mostly because I am recently 
out of the hospital and don't have the energy to go dig out all of the 
documentation.   However, briefly, ....

1.  Liqueur as a word was not used until the 17th century and would not be 
documentable even as a word to describe the product.  Cordial, on the other 
hand was used as a word to describe a flavored distillate which was usually 
used for a "medicinal" purpose as early as the 9th century that I have found 
documented and perhaps even earlier.

2.  The term "used medicinally" can be very misleading.  When used with a 
modern understanding we assume that it was only used to treat illness and in 
small amounts and disagreeable flavorings.  However, if you read the herbals 
and medical treatises you will find quite a different "view" on the 
terminology of "used medicinally".  For instance, most people modernly would 
view sipping a peach cordial during dinner to be using it "recreationally".  
But several herbals specifically suggest that peach cordials be consumed with 
a meat course to aid in digestion and they list this under "medicinal" 
applications.  (yes, I am speaking of period herbals)  Perhaps (and IMO) the 
difference is not so much in the fact that cordials weren't used in period 
except as medicine as it is in a difference of terminology's as to what is 
medicine.

3.  There is one period reference which I can pull off of the top of my head. 
 (I will research the others when I can physically get out of bed).  About a 
year and 1/2 ago I started work on some cordial entries.  The main complaint 
I heard was that vodka was not period and shouldn't be used in "liqueurs".  
The first bit of research was in the OED where I learned about the words 
liqueur and cordial as referenced in #1 above.  Then I started trying to find 
out if vodka was period.  I started by searching for charter dates on 
distilleries.  I found one which listed a charter date of 1691.  I wrote to 
the head of that distillery and learned that the actual charter date is 1591 
and that it has been in the same family since that time.  I also learned that 
the founder worked as an apprentice to a master brewer in France for twelve 
years prior to founding the distillery.  I now have a copy of that original 
charter (so wheat vodka produced by Ketel One Distillery is period) as well 
as the first few pages of the journal which the founder kept of his time as 
an apprentice.  I also have the first few pages of his "recipe" book which he 
compiled over his lifetime as a brewer.  The owner and current head of the 
family is sending me copies of these documents a few pages at a time as they 
are brought out from the vault and hand copied.  He is doing this because he 
is thrilled that anyone is interested in such things.  Hopefully I will soon 
have many period cordial recipes to share with you all. 

However, to get back on point, the first few pages of the apprentice journal 
from approx. 1577 note that his master and journeymen have once again failed 
to produce a cordial which can either duplicate or exceed that which is 
produced by the Brothers of the Benedictine orders.  That the current line of 
thought among the master brewers is that said Brothers are using both methods 
of the still and those of the infusers in combination to produce their "very 
popular" draught.  He also mentions that two much sugar must have been added 
in the infusing process as the latest attempt is much sweeter than that 
produced by the Benedictine Brothers.

Though I have, as yet, only a few pages of each of these two documents, they 
would seem to bear out the evidence found in other herbals that cordials were 
used in more than a strict (modern) medicinal sense and that they were indeed 
also produced by the use of infusion and the addition of sweetener to an 
alcohol base.

I would also note that at least 3 herbals warn against those who would use 
these cordials "overmuch"  (Gerard, Culpepper, and Gregory just to mention 
three I remember mentioning it outright though I am sure that there are 
others)  Such warnings would not be needed if there were not people using 
such cordials in a social rather than a medicinal way.

Yes, I could go on about this all day.  And possibly will when I have the 
physical strength to do so.  Suffice it for now to say that I disagree with 
the assumption that cordials are not period and assert that they were period 
and were used more than medicinally though I suspect that they were used less 
than we often use them late at night in the campfire circles at camping 
events. ;)

Constance de la Rose  

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<HTML>In a message dated 4/10/01 2:09:21 PM Mountain Daylight Time, 
 betpulib at ptdprolog.net writes:
 
 
 <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Personally I find it rather incredible that no one has *ever* found evidence
 of combining flavored sugar syrups with alcohol (or vinegar) throughout
 history ;).
 
 </BLOCKQUOTE>
 
 I have stayed out of this discussion for a bit mostly because I am recently 
 out of the hospital and don't have the energy to go dig out all of the 
 documentation.   However, briefly, ....
 
 1.  Liqueur as a word was not used until the 17th century and would not be 
 documentable even as a word to describe the product.  Cordial, on the other 
 hand was used as a word to describe a flavored distillate which was usually 
 used for a "medicinal" purpose as early as the 9th century that I have found 
 documented and perhaps even earlier.
 
 2.  The term "used medicinally" can be very misleading.  When used with a 
 modern understanding we assume that it was only used to treat illness and in 
 small amounts and disagreeable flavorings.  However, if you read the herbals 
 and medical treatises you will find quite a different "view" on the 
 terminology of "used medicinally".  For instance, most people modernly would 
 view sipping a peach cordial during dinner to be using it "recreationally".  
 But several herbals specifically suggest that peach cordials be consumed with 
 a meat course to aid in digestion and they list this under "medicinal" 
 applications.  (yes, I am speaking of period herbals)  Perhaps (and IMO) the 
 difference is not so much in the fact that cordials weren't used in period 
 except as medicine as it is in a difference of terminology's as to what is 
 medicine.
 
 3.  There is one period reference which I can pull off of the top of my head. 
  (I will research the others when I can physically get out of bed).  About a 
 year and 1/2 ago I started work on some cordial entries.  The main complaint 
 I heard was that vodka was not period and shouldn't be used in "liqueurs".  
 The first bit of research was in the OED where I learned about the words 
 liqueur and cordial as referenced in #1 above.  Then I started trying to find 
 out if vodka was period.  I started by searching for charter dates on 
 distilleries.  I found one which listed a charter date of 1691.  I wrote to 
 the head of that distillery and learned that the actual charter date is 1591 
 and that it has been in the same family since that time.  I also learned that 
 the founder worked as an apprentice to a master brewer in France for twelve 
 years prior to founding the distillery.  I now have a copy of that original 
 charter (so wheat vodka produced by Ketel One Distillery is period) as well 
 as the first few pages of the journal which the founder kept of his time as 
 an apprentice.  I also have the first few pages of his "recipe" book which he 
 compiled over his lifetime as a brewer.  The owner and current head of the 
 family is sending me copies of these documents a few pages at a time as they 
 are brought out from the vault and hand copied.  He is doing this because he 
 is thrilled that anyone is interested in such things.  Hopefully I will soon 
 have many period cordial recipes to share with you all. 
 
 However, to get back on point, the first few pages of the apprentice journal 
 from approx. 1577 note that his master and journeymen have once again failed 
 to produce a cordial which can either duplicate or exceed that which is 
 produced by the Brothers of the Benedictine orders.  That the current line of 
 thought among the master brewers is that said Brothers are using both methods 
 of the still and those of the infusers in combination to produce their "very 
 popular" draught.  He also mentions that two much sugar must have been added 
 in the infusing process as the latest attempt is much sweeter than that 
 produced by the Benedictine Brothers.
 
 Though I have, as yet, only a few pages of each of these two documents, they 
 would seem to bear out the evidence found in other herbals that cordials were 
 used in more than a strict (modern) medicinal sense and that they were indeed 
 also produced by the use of infusion and the addition of sweetener to an 
 alcohol base.
 
 I would also note that at least 3 herbals warn against those who would use 
 these cordials "overmuch"  (Gerard, Culpepper, and Gregory just to mention 
 three I remember mentioning it outright though I am sure that there are 
 others)  Such warnings would not be needed if there were not people using 
 such cordials in a social rather than a medicinal way.
 
 Yes, I could go on about this all day.  And possibly will when I have the 
 physical strength to do so.  Suffice it for now to say that I disagree with 
 the assumption that cordials are not period and assert that they were period 
 and were used more than medicinally though I suspect that they were used less 
 than we often use them late at night in the campfire circles at camping 
 events. ;)
 
 Constance de la Rose  </HTML>

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