[Sca-cooks] re: Sca-cooks digest, Vol 1 #17 - 5 msgs
leslie.watson at hrdc-drhc.gc.ca
leslie.watson at hrdc-drhc.gc.ca
Wed May 9 04:55:39 PDT 2001
I am away from aproximately 2:30 on May 8 until Friday morning May 11. If
your request is of an urgent nature please call my line, 416-954-7455. I
will be checking messages from time to time. thanks
Leslie Watson
HRDC, FA&IT
Facilities Officer
phone: 416-954-7745
Fax: 416-954-7741
Watson.L at hrdc-drhc.gc.ca
---------- Original Text ----------
From: <sca-cooks-request at ansteorra.org>, on 5/9/01 6:59 AM:
To: INET[<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>]
Send Sca-cooks mailing list submissions to
sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/sca-cooks
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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You can reach the person managing the list at
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Sca-cooks digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: No Sugar in 10th Century?? (LrdRas at aol.com)
2. Re: No Sugar in 10th Century?? (Stefan li Rous)
3. Re: Re: easy to grow herbs (Stefan li Rous)
4. re: Sca-cooks digest, Vol 1 #16 - 16 msgs (leslie.watson at hrdc-drhc.gc.ca)
5. Re: No Sugar in 10th Century?? (Philip & Susan Troy)
--__--__--
Message: 1
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 01:20:36 EDT
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] No Sugar in 10th Century??
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
In a message dated 5/9/01 1:09:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
lilinah at earthlink.net writes:
<< Lessee - i know they didn't have diesel ships, airplanes, or air
conditioning. They used wooden, not metal boats. Warehouses nowadays
are often built of corrugated metal. That's not Medieval or
Renaissance. I know they didn't have heat sealed plastic sacks.
>>
Correct. BUT.....metal items such as tools were shipped in wrapped oil soaked
rags in water tight barrels. Properly constructed wooden containers and
barrels tend to moderate temperature extremes. Containers can (and were)
sealed with beeswax and pitch to make them moisture prooof.
Ras
--__--__--
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 00:50:01 -0500
From: Stefan li Rous <stefan at texas.net>
To: SCA-Cooks maillist <SCA-Cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] No Sugar in 10th Century??
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Ras replied with a variation of his oft repeated phrase:
> lilinah at earthlink.net writes:
> << Still i imagine that shipping and warehousing conditions were a bit
> different in the Middle Ages than they are now. >>
>
> Documentation?
We did discuss this a little a while back on this list. I think it was
Bear who cited some interesting info showing the price was higher for
spices transported by ship than by caravan, persumably because the
ship transported stuff was fresher.
I think I put most of those comments in this file in the PLANTS, HERBS
AND SPICES section of the Florilegium:
spices-msg (126K) 3/23/01 Info. on spices, sources for spices.
I think some similar information my be in the commerce-msg file in the
COMMERCE section as well.
I've pasted one such message below.
I'd love to see more information, though.
--
THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas stefan at texas.net
**** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org ****
> Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 20:05:32 -0500
> From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
> Subject: RE: SC - transporting ingredients
>
> If you look at the import duties of the Kingdom of Jerusalem, spices
> delivered by sea paid a higher duty than spice delivered by caravan. This
> suggests that spices shipped by sea via India and the Red Sea were more
> potent and valuable than those brought overland.
>
> Spices shipped by sea would have been sealed in containers which would
> protect them from water. This would also help protect them from the air.
>
> Bear
>
> > One thing you may have noticed: when quatities of spices *are* mentioned
> > in period recipes, it looks like a ridiculously large amount. It is.
> > Their spices weren't very potent. (this is corroborated by explorers'
> > surprise at the flavors when they reached the Spice Islands) As a friend
> > once told me, "These things were put in hide bags and transported on the
> > back of an animal for months, then put on a leaky boat for more months.
> > Care to guess what happened to the essential oils?"
> >
> > If you want everything to taste good, worry less about how they
> > transported it and look instead at the physical conditions you have to
> > deal with--heat, humidity, wind, rain, marauding drunks. Screw top jars
> > are fine and medieval people would have killed for them. Come to think
> > of it, they'd kill for our quality of spices.
> >
> > Morgana
--__--__--
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 01:19:43 -0500
From: Stefan li Rous <stefan at texas.net>
To: SCA-Cooks maillist <SCA-Cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: easy to grow herbs
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Ras commented:
> For those who have limited space and wish to grow herbs useful in period
> cookery, etc. which are not generally available year round or otherwise I
> would suggest the following: Hyssop, lamb's ears, lemon balm, lovage,
> gilliflower, nigella (love in a mist), marshmallow.
The herb garden where I bought my herbs also had the first four of those
listed above and also, I think, nigella.
However, I bought the ones I did because I thought I would get more use
of them. Growing my own, hopefully, will allow me to pinch off just a
little when I need it and not buy a plastic box of an herb for several
dollars, most of which will go unused.
Ras said in a latter message:
> IIRC, Stefan had somehow changed the subject to growing things in pots. While
> container gardening was wisespread throughout the middle ages, we have no
> indication (in fact, the opposite) that container gardening was done in
> anything other than very large containers.
Huh? I mentioned that I would, at first at least, be growing my herbs in
pots. I said nothing about this being period or not. I didn't really
care if it was. It will allow me to move my plants around some to find
the best spot for them. Much easier for me and the plants, than guessing
wrong and having to move them later. In addition, I'm concerned about
confining my mint plants to one location. I get the feeling I'm being
accused of doing something wrong, but I'm not sure what.
--
THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas stefan at texas.net
**** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org ****
--__--__--
Message: 4
From: leslie.watson at hrdc-drhc.gc.ca
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 3:55:38 -0400
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] re: Sca-cooks digest, Vol 1 #16 - 16 msgs
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
I am away from aproximately 2:30 on May 8 until Friday morning May 11. If
your request is of an urgent nature please call my line, 416-954-7455. I
will be checking messages from time to time. thanks
Leslie Watson
HRDC, FA&IT
Facilities Officer
phone: 416-954-7745
Fax: 416-954-7741
Watson.L at hrdc-drhc.gc.ca
---------- Original Text ----------
From: <sca-cooks-request at ansteorra.org>, on 5/9/01 1:10 AM:
To: INET[<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>]
Send Sca-cooks mailing list submissions to
sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/sca-cooks
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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You can reach the person managing the list at
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Sca-cooks digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. cubebs (Olwen the Odd)
2. Re: cubebs (lilinah at earthlink.net)
3. Re: cubebs (Angus)
4. Re: cubebs (Olwen the Odd)
5. Re: sugar and regia anglorum (david friedman)
6. Re: No Sugar in 10th Century?? (david friedman)
7. Re: cubebs (Chris Stanifer)
8. A big favour to ask. (Black Jade)
9. Re: sugar and regia anglorum (Philip & Susan Troy)
10. Re: No Sugar in 10th Century?? (Audrey Bergeron-Morin)
11. Re: No Sugar in 10th Century?? (Philip & Susan Troy)
12. Re: No Sugar in 10th Century?? (LrdRas at aol.com)
13. Re: Re: easy to grow herbs (LrdRas at aol.com)
14. Re: No Sugar in 10th Century?? (LrdRas at aol.com)
15. Re: cubebs (LrdRas at aol.com)
16. Re: No Sugar in 10th Century?? (lilinah at earthlink.net)
-- __--__--
Message: 1
From: "Olwen the Odd" <olwentheodd at hotmail.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 17:13:44 -0000
Subject: [Sca-cooks] cubebs
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
>On the other hand i have some cubebs i bought in the mid-1970's
>which, while probably really weak compared to when they were fresh,
>are still incredibly flavorful, better than the new ones i bought.
>Which reminds me of Balthazar's thread on cubebs. My old ones are
>large - with an almost citrus overtone - while the new ones are
>rather tiny, and while pungent and flavorful are not quite as
>wonderful tasting.
>
>Anahita
I bought some cubebs that are about the size and shape of whole black
pepper. They are dark but not like pepper. They taste very pungent and
rather sharp. Some of them still have little stems on them. Is this anyone
elses experience? If in fact they are something else (false cubebs) I
really like them anyway and would wonder what they really are.
Olwen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
-- __--__--
Message: 2
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 10:27:54 -0700
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] cubebs
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
>>On the other hand i have some cubebs i bought in the mid-1970's
>>which, while probably really weak compared to when they were fresh,
>>are still incredibly flavorful, better than the new ones i bought.
>>Which reminds me of Balthazar's thread on cubebs. My old ones are
>>large - with an almost citrus overtone - while the new ones are
>>rather tiny, and while pungent and flavorful are not quite as
>>wonderful tasting.
>>
>>Anahita
>
>I bought some cubebs that are about the size and shape of whole black
>pepper. They are dark but not like pepper. They taste very pungent and
>rather sharp. Some of them still have little stems on them. Is this anyone
>elses experience? If in fact they are something else (false cubebs) I
>really like them anyway and would wonder what they really are.
>Olwen
Yeah, my new "cubebs" are like yours. I guess they're just tailed
peppers. They're good, but not like my old cubebs.
Sigh
Anahita
-- __--__--
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 13:04:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Angus <angus at iamawitch.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] cubebs
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
--- lilinah at earthlink.net
> wrote:
>>>On the other hand i have some cubebs i bought in the mid-1970's
>>>which, while probably really weak compared to when they were fresh,
>>>are still incredibly flavorful, better than the new ones i bought.
>>>Which reminds me of Balthazar's thread on cubebs. My old ones are
>>>large - with an almost citrus overtone - while the new ones are
>>>rather tiny, and while pungent and flavorful are not quite as
>>>wonderful tasting.
>>>
>>>Anahita
>>
>>I bought some cubebs that are about the size and shape of whole black
>>pepper. They are dark but not like pepper. They taste very pungent and
>>rather sharp. Some of them still have little stems on them. Is this anyone
>>elses experience? If in fact they are something else (false cubebs) I
>>really like them anyway and would wonder what they really are.
>>Olwen
>
>Yeah, my new "cubebs" are like yours. I guess they're just tailed
>peppers. They're good, but not like my old cubebs.
>
>Sigh
>
>Anahita
I stopped by Gernot Katzer's Spice Pages at
http://www-ang.kfunigraz.ac.at/~katzer/engl/index.html
There tailed pepper is listed as a synonym for cubeb pepper. Regarding
Olwen's "cubebs" I can't, from the description, say if they're cubebs or
ashanti pepper.
/Angus MacIomhair, temporarily out of lurking.
==
There comes a time in every man's life when he must feel tempted to spit in
his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats.
--H.L. Mencken
_____________________________________________________________
Get your own mando cool and totally free email at iamawitch.com address at
http://freemail.iamawitch.com today!
-- __--__--
Message: 4
From: "Olwen the Odd" <olwentheodd at hotmail.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] cubebs
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 20:19:22 -0000
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
>I stopped by Gernot Katzer's Spice Pages at
>http://www-ang.kfunigraz.ac.at/~katzer/engl/index.html
>There tailed pepper is listed as a synonym for cubeb pepper. Regarding
>Olwen's "cubebs" I can't, from the description, say if they're cubebs or
>ashanti pepper.
>/Angus MacIomhair, temporarily out of lurking.
The ones I have are definatly the cubebs. The others are just not the same
looking.
Olwen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
-- __--__--
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 12:56:36 -0700
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] sugar and regia anglorum
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
> > > In just the last week or two, I was asking if anyone had any info on
>> > how horseradish was used in period. So far, all I think I've got is
>> > as a sauce. What can you tell me about how horseradish was used in
>> > Anglo-Ssaxon England (or elsewhere)?
>
>Something about the herbal texts I've looked at suggests to me that
>horseradish, as a
>medicament and condiment, may have come out of Eastern Europe and
>taken quite some time
>to make it to the hinterlands of Britain.
Ann Hagen, in _A Second Handbook of Anglo-Saxon Food and Drink_,
includes horseradish in a list of herbs listed in _de Villis_ and/or
the St. Gall plan. She seems to be implying that they are among the
herbs most often cited in leechdoms, but the passage isn't entirely
clear. She first says that the herbs most often cited in leechdoms
are also those referred to in other sources, then gives a list of
herbs from those two sources, including horseradish.
--
David Friedman
Professor of Law
Santa Clara University
ddfr at best.com
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
-- __--__--
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 12:50:20 -0700
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] No Sugar in 10th Century??
Cc: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler at chesapeake.net>
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Kiri writes:
>Just a thought...I can't help but wonder...I know that some recipes seem
>to call for very large quantities of spices proportionate to the amount of
>other ingredients.
Can you give me an example of one such recipe? I don't think I know any.
>I think I finally figured out that, by the time most
>of the spices got used, they had been around for a while, counting their
>transportation from where they originated, and had probably lost a fair
>amount of their strength.
This is a common suggestion, but it is an explanation for a puzzle
that, so far as I know, doesn't exist. You are assuming that medieval
recipes often specify large amounts of spices. But most medieval
recipes don't have quantities in them. And where you can deduce
quantities, they don't seem to support the idea that there were
unreasonably large amounts of spices.
--
David/Cariadoc
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
-- __--__--
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 16:16:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris Stanifer <jugglethis at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] cubebs
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
--- lilinah at earthlink.net wrote:
>
> Yeah, my new "cubebs" are like yours. I guess
> they're just tailed
> peppers. They're good, but not like my old cubebs.
>
> Sigh
I'm still looking into this, mind you, and others may
already have better information, but I believe the
best way to tell cubebs from 'false cubeb' is by
color. 'False Cubeb' is said to be grayish, while
real cubebs are said to be reddish-brown.
Balthazar of Blackmoor
=====
Words are Trains for moving past what really has no name...
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
-- __--__--
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 09:37:38 +1000
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: Black Jade <black_jade at bigpond.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] A big favour to ask.
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
--
[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
Greetings Good Gentles all.
My Pelican just set me a task and it's a tall order within the time frame
he's set (a couple of months) So I'm asking the gentles of this list to
help if they can.
I'll let him explain it in his own words:
A friend of mine (non-SCA) is completing the editing of a previously
unpublished account of the reign of Henry VII by one of his secretaries. As
a part of this there is a feast menu from 1487 celebrating his coronation.
She wonders if it would be possible to find the recipes (possibly both
unredacted and redacted - but the first has priority).
BTW, when this is published it will contain absolute details on ceremonial,
seating arrangements, dress etc etc. Start drooling now. While this is her
Master's thesis, she has a publisher after her already.
Hrolf
This is the menu:
Furst a warner byfor the course.
Conys of high grece
Sheldes of brawne in armour.
Moten roiall richely garnysshed
Frumetye with veneson.
Valance bake
Bruet riche.
Custarde royall
Hart powderd graunt chare
Tarte poleyn
Fesaunt in trainde royall
Leyse damask
Swan with chawdron
Frutt synaper
Capons of high grece
Frutt formage
Lamperrey in galantyne
A soteltie, with writing of balades whiche as yet I have not.
Crane with cretney
Pik in latymer sawce
Herounsew with his signe
Carpe in fowle
Kid reversed
Perche in jeloy deperte.
A warner byfor the course.
Bittowre
Joly ipocras.
Fesawnte
Mamene with lozenges of golde.
Browes
Pekok in hakell.
Egretes in beowetyer
Cokkes
Venesone in past royall.
Partricche.
Quince baked
Sturgyn fresshe fenell.
Marche payne royall
Plovers.
A colde bake mete florisshede
Rabett sowker.
Lethe ciprus
Seyle in fenyn enterly served richely armes.
Lethe ruby
Red Shankkes.
Fruter augeo
Snytes.
Fruter mounteyne
Quayles.
Castelles of jely in temple wise made
Larkes ingraylede.
Creves de endence.
A soteltie
So as you can see this is a large list and I am but one with my only real
access to period sources is on the internet. Please can anyone with the
inclination or time, have a gander around in their texts for any of these
recipes and if you find them, send me the original. Redactions are not
required, but would be taken as a kindness.
Thank you for any help you might be able to give a struggling cook.
-Katerine
--
-- __--__--
Message: 9
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 22:04:06 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] sugar and regia anglorum
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
david friedman wrote:
>
> > > > In just the last week or two, I was asking if anyone had any info on
> >> > how horseradish was used in period. So far, all I think I've got is
> >> > as a sauce. What can you tell me about how horseradish was used in
> >> > Anglo-Ssaxon England (or elsewhere)?
> >
> >Something about the herbal texts I've looked at suggests to me that
> >horseradish, as a
> >medicament and condiment, may have come out of Eastern Europe and
> >taken quite some time
> >to make it to the hinterlands of Britain.
>
> Ann Hagen, in _A Second Handbook of Anglo-Saxon Food and Drink_,
> includes horseradish in a list of herbs listed in _de Villis_ and/or
> the St. Gall plan. She seems to be implying that they are among the
> herbs most often cited in leechdoms, but the passage isn't entirely
> clear. She first says that the herbs most often cited in leechdoms
> are also those referred to in other sources, then gives a list of
> herbs from those two sources, including horseradish.
I had suspected that leechdoms would turn out to be the primary sources
for some of these asertions, and I haven't yet had a chance to look
closely through Wellcome's "Anglo-Saxon Leechcraft" for references to
things like sugar.
Adamantius
-- __--__--
Message: 10
From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" <audreybmorin at yahoo.com>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] No Sugar in 10th Century??
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 23:22:44 -0400
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Well, I thought that maybe if spices were so expensive they might tend to
exaggerate a bit in the written recipes to impress someone reading it. (Wow,
that guy put that much spice in that dish, he must be very rich or very
generous to serve his guests that much of it)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Elaine Koogler" <ekoogler at chesapeake.net>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 8:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] No Sugar in 10th Century??
> Just a thought...I can't help but wonder...I know that some recipes seem
> to call for very large quantities of spices proportionate to the amount of
> other ingredients. I think I finally figured out that, by the time most
> of the spices got used, they had been around for a while, counting their
> transportation from where they originated, and had probably lost a fair
> amount of their strength. I wonder if this might not be where the myth of
> heavy seasoning came from??????
>
> Understand: I'm not speaking of herbs and things that were grown locally,
> but rather those that had to come from, say, the Spice Islands.
>
> Kiri
>
> LrdRas at aol.com wrote:
>
> > In a message dated 5/7/01 2:00:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > TerryD at Health.State.OK.US writes:
> >
> > << Or was heavy spicing a form of conspicuous consumption?
> >
> > Bear >>
> >
> > Or was heavy spicing a myth? I think so. Certainly a large number and
> > variety of spices was often used in the same dish but that does not
> > translate into a large quantity of any given spice.
> >
> > Ras
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sca-cooks mailing list
> > Sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
> > http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/sca-cooks
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sca-cooks mailing list
> Sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
> http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/sca-cooks
_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
-- __--__--
Message: 11
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 23:28:40 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] No Sugar in 10th Century??
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Audrey Bergeron-Morin wrote:
>
> Well, I thought that maybe if spices were so expensive they might tend to
> exaggerate a bit in the written recipes to impress someone reading it. (Wow,
> that guy put that much spice in that dish, he must be very rich or very
> generous to serve his guests that much of it)
My own suspicion is that if he were very rich and very generous, he
would have a scribe perform the extremely meticulous and expensive task
of copying out a real cookbook and giving it to someone...
Adamantius
-- __--__--
Message: 12
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 00:35:01 EDT
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] No Sugar in 10th Century??
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
In a message dated 5/8/01 9:02:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
ekoogler at chesapeake.net writes:
<< I know that some recipes seem to call for very large quantities of spices
proportionate to the amount of other ingredients. >>
Agreed. However, thise recipes that do contain quantities (outside the middle
eastern collections) really are rather rare. Given the unpalatible nature of
the resulting dish, it is my contention that either there were scribal errors
which creeped in through the process of hand copying and recopying or that
the quantities given were meant to be ground and mixed to gether and use as
a seasoning much like we use Cajun seasoning or apple pie spice. Numerous
references to 'spice powder', 'strong spice powder', 'powder' without further
instructions seems to lend credence to this position. As does the existence
of wandering spice grinders.
In my viewpoint, the biggest argument against the use of large quantities of
spices in a given recipe (e.g. 1 LB of cloves in a pound of meat) is simply
the fact that the resulting dish is inedible.
Ras
-- __--__--
Message: 13
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 00:52:19 EDT
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: easy to grow herbs
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
In a message dated 5/8/01 9:54:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jenne at mail.browser.net writes:
<< Hyssop,>>
Hyssop appears in a large number of period European and English recipes. To
l;ist them would take more time than I have at the moment. A quick glance at
Cariadoc's collection will give you enough recipes using hyssop to last you
many months.
<< lamb's ears, lemon balm,...gilliflower,...marshmallow>>
Suggestions for the use of these herbs appear in Stefan's Flori-thingy.
<< , lovage,>>
This herb appears in Apicius.
<< , nigella (love in a mist), . >>
One that comes to mind is the Byzantine Murri recipe.
Regarding growing in small spaces. I think the gist of my original message
was for those with a side yard or a few square feet of space. 6 feet tall
does not necessarily mean 6 feet around. :-) With judicious pruning, even
large plants can be kept well within bounds. I personally have a 5 yr. old
beech tree growing in a 4 inch pot and it is less than 18 inches tall. :-)
IIRC, Stefan had somehow changed the subject to growing things in pots. While
container gardening was wisespread throughout the middle ages, we have no
indication (in fact, the opposite) that container gardening was done in
anything other than very large containers.
Ras
-- __--__--
Message: 14
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 00:54:10 EDT
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] No Sugar in 10th Century??
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
In a message dated 5/8/01 11:21:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
lilinah at earthlink.net writes:
<< Still i imagine that shipping and warehousing conditions were a bit
different in the Middle Ages than they are now. >>
Documentation?
Ras
-- __--__--
Message: 15
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 00:58:28 EDT
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] cubebs
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
In a message dated 5/8/01 1:17:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
olwentheodd at hotmail.com writes:
<< I bought some cubebs that are about the size and shape of whole black
pepper. They are dark but not like pepper. They taste very pungent and
rather sharp. >>
This is the form my cubeb berries take also. While similar in size to black
peppercorns, they are a bit larger. This is what the Pepperer's Guild has
been selling as 'cubebs' for the past 19 plus years. Since their research is
rather meticulous, I would assume these are the 'real thing'.
Ras
-- __--__--
Message: 16
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 22:15:17 -0700
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] No Sugar in 10th Century??
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
>In a message dated 5/8/01 11:21:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>lilinah at earthlink.net writes:
><< Still i imagine that shipping and warehousing conditions were a bit
> different in the Middle Ages than they are now. >>
>
>Documentation?
>
>Ras
Lessee - i know they didn't have diesel ships, airplanes, or air
conditioning. They used wooden, not metal boats. Warehouses nowadays
are often built of corrugated metal. That's not Medieval or
Renaissance. I know they didn't have heat sealed plastic sacks.
Course, maybe they did, and somehow i just missed the references to them.
Anahita
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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 06:57:49 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] No Sugar in 10th Century??
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
LrdRas at aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 5/9/01 1:09:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> lilinah at earthlink.net writes:
>
> << Lessee - i know they didn't have diesel ships, airplanes, or air
> conditioning. They used wooden, not metal boats. Warehouses nowadays
> are often built of corrugated metal. That's not Medieval or
> Renaissance. I know they didn't have heat sealed plastic sacks.
> >>
>
> Correct. BUT.....metal items such as tools were shipped in wrapped oil soaked
> rags in water tight barrels. Properly constructed wooden containers and
> barrels tend to moderate temperature extremes. Containers can (and were)
> sealed with beeswax and pitch to make them moisture prooof.
AND..... (sorry, it seemed to look right) the kind of staling that has
been referred to is much more of an issue when the spices aren't in
whole form.
Adamantius
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