[Sca-cooks] Marrow (Long)

[johnna holloway]

Yes, the marrow in question should without doubt
have been that of bone marrow for the recipes
that were under discussion. Several people had
responded on the list already that it was bone
marrow, prior to my posting.
In my posting, I was just answering the second
part of the query regarding what a vegetable
marrow is vis a vis a zuchini in the modern world.
Yes, of course, modern zucchini or vegetable marrows
post WWII are new world squashes of the same
family as pumpkins.


As to when they were first used in the UK, and their
nomenclature in the OED, I did some further checking.
Gillian Riley uses the terms "Marrows (zucchini)"
in her translation of Giacomo Castelvetro's manuscript
from the early 17th century. (He died in 1616, so the
mss. dates from between 1614-1616.). Not knowing what
terms were used in the original Italian text, it's hard to
say whether Riley used the modern term "marrow" for zucchini
or used "marrow and "zucchini" when the original term was
say courgettes. If in fact, Castelvetro was talking about
growing zucchini or marrow (cucurbita pepo) then this
would put them into gardens and use shortly after the
1600 cutoff. Riley on page 160 indicates that Castelvetro
meant the lagenaria family in the entry on "pumpkins."
If this applies also to the entry on "marrows" on page
96, then why use the terms "marrows" and "zucchini" when
the plant being discussed was an old world gourd?
See The Fruit, Herbs and Vegetables of Italy for this problem.

C. Anne Wilson in Food and Drink in Britain
also says "Cucumbers, marrows, garden
asparagus and cardoons (a form of globe artichoke) may have
been grown in Britain's villa gardens, but they were too
tender to survive the end of the Roman occupation. (326)
On page 327, she says "Apicius has several recipes for
vegetable marrows, boiled, fried or mashed..."
This would indicate to me that the term "marrow" and
in the case of Wilson "vegetable marrow " is also
being used for the old world gourd used in Roman recipes.
And indeed, the Flower and Rosenbaum edition of Apicius under
the title The Roman Cookery Book (originally published
in England in 1958) uses the term "Marrow" for the Latin
"Cucurbitas" on pp.74-75. This leads one to conclude that
the same words indicate not one but two, (possibly even three plants
if one includes the Marrow kale as given below)
 totally different plants.

Even the OED 2nd online which I have access to gives an
2 odd entries as follows:

"marrow-stemmed kale. 1598 Sylvester Du Bartas
 ii. i. i. Eden 537 Their *marrow-boyling loves."

Under marrow one finds as Bear quoted the 1816 date & quote:
" vegetable marrow:
a. A kind of gourd, the fruit of Cucurbita ovifera,
used as a table vegetable.
1816 J. Sabine in Trans. Hort. Soc. (1822) II. 255
(title of paper) A Description and Account of the Cultivation of a
Variety of Gourd called Vegetable Marrow."

So is OED talking about a "gourd" or a "squash"?
If it's just a squash, why the reference to gourd at all?
Or does OED intermingle squash with gourd and gourd with squash?

The Middle English Dictionary also
gives this as one of the definitions for "marrow"
(a) The kernel or meat of a nut, seed, grain, or fruit;
 the soft inner part of bread contained by the crust, crumb;
 ~ of whete, heart of wheat, fine flour; (b) the heart
 of a tree; also, tender growing shoots of a tree. The quotes
refer mostly to marrow of wheat.

(I did check the Florilegium entries on marrow and note that
Bear brought up this nomenclature question back in 1998.)

Having not seen the original recipes being discussed,
is it  beyond the realm of possibility that the mention of
"marrow" in pre-1600 recipes might have been "marrow kale",
the old world gourd being called a marrow or more likely
 "bone marrow"?
If it is a translated recipe and an English author ...?????

Johnna Holloway  Johnnae llyn Lewis

Terry Decker wrote:>
> The problem is genus Cucurbita is of New World origin.  The Cucurbita
> replaced the Langenaria, or bottle gourds, on European tables beginning in
> the 16th Century.>
> The OED places the first use of marrow as referring to a cucurbit in 1816.
> Thus pre-17th Century cooking references to marrow are almost certainly
> referring to bone marrow.> Bear
>
> >Yes, British vegetable marrows are part of the
> >marrow/zuchini group of Summer squashes or
> >cucurbita pepo. Alan Davidson notes that the
> >British have for some time taken to growing them
> >to extreme sizes and dimensions for contests and
> >exhibitions.Johnnae llyn Lewis Johnna Holloway
> >
> >Linda Peterson wrote:
> >> We're discussing marrow and it's use in puddings and rissoles. I think
> >> it's refering to bone marrow, but someone suggests squash. Can anyone
> >> expound on which is most likely and if the brittish vegetable marrow is
> >> really what we think of here as an overgrown zuchinni? Mirhaxa
> >   mirhaxa at morktorn.com